Description

This episode explores creative leadership techniques that drive outcomes as well as the pitfalls of survivorship bias in building a product. Kelsey Nichols discusses her unconventional path into product management and building a product way of thinking that focuses on failure patterns and how to adapt.

(0:05) - Introduction to the podcast and hosts

(0:57) - Welcome to Kelsey Nichols, CTO at Landing

(1:07) - Kelsey describes her career journey from PE teacher to engineer to product manager and back to engineering

(3:36) - Kelsey talks about her transition from engineering to product management

(8:14) - The benefits of having a diverse background in product development

(9:33) - The event that led Kelsey to focus more on the "why" of product development

(10:57) - Areas where product leaders might miss the mark according to Kelsey's experience on the engineering team

(13:19) - Challenges of integrating a new product team and common friction points

(14:36) - Building a product department from the ground up and how it's similar to building a product

(16:33) - Initial challenges and concerns about the success of the product department at Landing

(17:40) - Why looking at failures can be just as valuable as looking at successes (concept of survivorship bias)

(21:15) - The importance of embracing failure and creating a safe space for experimentation

(23:34) - Kelsey's experience as the longest-standing product leader at Landing (in jest)

(24:29) - The importance of creating a safe space for product development

(25:12) - The reality of failure and success rates in product development

(25:28) - Transitioning from Engineer to Product Leader

(28:34) - The Danger of Saying No in Product Management

(29:03) - Creative Strategies for Handling Feature Requests

(32:18) - Building Relationships with Stakeholders

(34:33) - The Importance of Business and Customer Focus

(36:09) - Problem-Solving as a Core Skill

(36:58) - The Value of Customer Research

(38:21) - Learning from Mistakes

In Episode 2 we welcome Joshua Butts, a seasoned product designer, with over nine years of experience in designing native mobile apps and desktop products.

Joshua provides valuable insights into the nuances of failure, the importance of managing expectations, and the practicalities of working in product design. His experiences underscore the complexity of balancing professional demands with personal well-being and the critical role of clear communication and collaboration in achieving success.

Episode Details:

(0:00) - Introduction

(1:02) - Hidden cost of failure

(3:00) - Failure is a privilege

(5:05) - Idealistic advice

(9:17) - The difference between high and low-cost failure

(11:40) - The solo stove example

(14:50) - Misaligned expectations are a recipe for failure

(18:03) - The importance of working sessions

(20:33) - Experimentation can be a double-edged sword

(28:30) - Evaluating risks and A/B testing

(30:01) - Functionality over aesthetic

(32:30) - MVPs are a trigger word for Josh

(36:40) - Phase 2 of MVPs never happen

(37:45) - Building for the sake of building is a waste of time

(40:06) - Wrap Up - Lessons learned

Welcome to the inaugural episode of "Bounce" with your hosts Claire Flowers and Mollie Cox!

In this introductory episode, Claire and Mollie delve into the intricate relationship between designers and product managers, uncovering the nuances, challenges, and opportunities within this dynamic collaboration.

Drawing from their own experience on product teams, Claire and Mollie explore the symbiotic and sometimes difficult relationship between designers and product managers.

From where communication can fail and roles can conflict, to where both PMs and designers can improve or adjust. Clarie and Mollie even share their own “friction moments”, failures and “product traumas” as they dissect the messy and oftentimes stressful environments that product teams work in.

Join Claire and Mollie on the beginning of this thought-provoking journey as they unpack the industry – offering invaluable wisdom and actionable advice for professionals navigating this ever-evolving landscape.

Episode Highlights:

(0:00) - Intro

(0:18) - Exploring the dynamics between product managers and product designers

(1:12) - Discussing the designers first

(4:57) - Designers being more timid

(7:04) - Designers stepping on your toes

(8:42) - Patterns that Mollie is noticing w/ PMs

(10:08) - “We never have time”

(15:18) - Different flavors of PMs

(19:03) - How can designers provide more clarity?

(21:55) - One of Claire’s “friction moments”

(24:03) - Who’s responsible for writing copy?

(29:54) - Mollie’s take on PM boundaries

(34:28) - Bad assumptions

(39:56) - Designers being the “afterthought”

(46:19) - Episode wrap-up

About the Hosts:

Claire Flowers is a Product Manager at Fleetio and brings 10+ years of management experience working with development and design teams.

Mollie Cox a Director of Product Design at Fleetio as well as a Professor at University of Nebraska for over a decade. Her mentorship covers a spectrum of disciplines from UX/UI Design to Portfolio Development, emphasizing design management and laying foundational skills for future designers.

Connect w/ Mollie Cox:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/molliecox/

Connect w/ Claire Flowers:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/claireflowers/

Mollie Cox and Claire Flowers take you on a journey through product team fails and flops and the lessons that carry you forward.