Where the Conflict Really Lies

Science, Religion, & Naturalism

By: Alvin Plantinga

Narrated by: Michael Butler Murray

Length: 12 hrs and 43 mins

Publisher's summary

This audiobook is a long-awaited major statement by a pre-eminent analytic philosopher, Alvin Plantinga, on one of our biggest debates - the compatibility of science and religion. The last twenty years has seen a cottage industry of books on this divide, but with little consensus emerging. Plantinga, as a top philosopher but also a proponent of the rationality of religious belief, has a unique contribution to make. His theme in this short book is that the conflict between science and theistic religion is actually superficial, and that at a deeper level they are in concord.

Plantinga examines where this conflict is supposed to exist - evolution, evolutionary psychology, analysis of scripture, scientific study of religion -- as well as claims by Dan Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Philip Kitcher that evolution and theistic belief cannot co-exist. Plantinga makes a case that their arguments are not only inconclusive but that the supposed conflicts themselves are superficial, due to the methodological naturalism used by science. On the other hand, science can actually offer support to theistic doctrines, and Plantinga uses the notion of biological and cosmological "fine-tuning" in support of this idea. Plantinga argues that we might think about arguments in science and religion in a new way - as different forms of discourse that try to persuade people to look at questions from a perspective such that they can see that something is true. In this way, there is a deep and massive consonance between theism and the scientific enterprise.

©2011 Oxford University Press (P)2014 Audible Inc.

The reader makes or breaks an audiobook.

I believe this is an excellent book and a great contribution to the debates of our time. However the performance of an audiobook makes or breaks the work. While the vocal quality of the reader is good in this audiobook it is unfortunately very frustratingly clear that he doesn't understand what he's reading. His arbitrary inflection throughout betrays a lack of comprehension and forces the listener to have to do a lot of extra work to understand it himself. It is worse than listening to monotone and makes the audiobook not at all worth the purchase.

A Remarkable Engagement between Science and Theism

This is a powerful and well written book that directly engages the fault line in western intellectual discourse between theism and naturalism that has been so disputed since the enlightenment and the amazing development of modern science. It is not a history of that development but an analytic philosophical exploration of the issues at stake in the claims of naturalism or reductive materialism and of a theistic description of reality. The arguments are clearly and forcefully presented, often complete with logical formulae, and with a clear mastery of all the technical tools of modern analytic philosophy.

Along with the forceful argument, however, there is also a self-deprecating sense of humor and a use of everyday illustrations that make Plantinga's investigation of issues easy to follow.

He argues that the fundamental character of the relationship between science and a theistic understanding of reality have been misunderstood in most recent discussion. There is no substantial conflict between science and theism, but that in fact the real conflict is between the great intellectual edifice of science and naturalism or reductive materialism.

The book is very well read and easy to follow with a few exceptions. Logical formulae do not lend themselves to being easily understood when read orally. The book requires thoughtful concentration, but well repays the effort required.

Difficult in Audio Format

Any additional comments?

This is a very well written book, but it uses many logical proofs in the form of "If A, then B-C, C then B-D..." Very difficult these proofs in an audio book.

Good book but a little harder in audio

Where does Where the Conflict Really Lies rank among all the audiobooks you’ve listened to so far?

If you're not use to listening to philosophy books, this might be hard

What was one of the most memorable moments of Where the Conflict Really Lies?

The dismantling of the atheist claim of having a high probability to know

What do you think the narrator could have done better?

Not too much, it's not his fault he had to read some of the probability equations and form logic

Did you have an extreme reaction to this book? Did it make you laugh or cry?

Plantinga's personality does shine through in his writing

Any additional comments?

Plantinga once again shows himself to be a master philosopher in this book. On a scale of 1 to 10 of it being academically written it is probably an 8 on average. There is some form logic and probability equations that might jumble some up, but overall this can be understood fairly well. Like reading the made up language in "A Clockwork Orange" to more you stay in it the better it is to understand the flow of thought.

Plantinga deals a large part of the book in his comfortable spot of negative argumentation - aka laying out the other side's position and defeating it. It is quite interesting and he represents the sides well. I've recently heard debates where atheists have defined their terms like "knowledge" and it is spot on to what Plantinga represents it as. It's interesting to see how much of an impact post modernism has had in the world and where knowledge isn't defined by a 1 or a 0 but by a probability number - one that can never reach either 1 (100%) or 0 (0%). And Plantinga makes the case that's where their downfall resides in.

Plantinga only uses about 3 chapters to make his positive case which is interesting. However, I wish he would have dedicated more of the book to it and then coming up with possible charges that would be thrown at them and his responses to them. From what is there a compelling case can be made that bolsters statements that I've heard William Lane Craig make about the knowledge of God being a basic belief. Plantinga falls back on his Reformed epistemology which is good though he expands the areas of "ability to do science", "ability to reason", and "morality" claims and breaks them into further sections. He mostly deals with the ability to do science aspect but ability to reason is closely tied. He leaves out the case for morality but that's no surprise as that's not what the book is willing to cover.

Plantinga once again shows himself to be a master of his craft and he doesn't hold harsh tones and seems willing to give up secondary claims to critique in order to drive home the better position he's holding as his base. The writing can be a bit long and dry in places and Plantinga spends a little too much time on the negative side of the argument (which is needed for sure) and there are some areas where he's expecting the audience to know where he's coming from. If you're used to reading philosophy or advanced apologetic books, this is a good one. For those who are wanting something a bit more easy, there are a good number of books coming out/are out that will still cover this subject as well. Final Grade - B

NOTE FOR AUDIO BOOK VERSION - If you're not use to listening to philosophy books with form logic and probability equations, this might be hard.

Time well spent: lucid

Solid reading for those wanting to understand the issues underlying the conflict among naturalists and theists and how science and theism are at root allies.

Historical Work by Plantinga

Powerfully persuasive since the book is airtight logical. Hope future discussions among others involved on the relevant topics to be at the equivalent level. For otherwise, they would be mere meaningless waste.
There are minor but irritating reader mistakes toward the end of the book: Page 320 (11:31:52) the reader reads the word "Neural" "Natural". Page 339 (footnote) on the third sentence, the reader misreads "Suppose" "Some", rendering the whole sentence incomprehensible.

Ridiculous arguments

Plantinga completely misses the mark. This pro-Christian, convoluted attempt to discredit the scientific process in order to maintain religious beliefs is an insult to real intellectuals.

I like Michael Murray

Seriously though, the narrator was good.
There is a lot to like about this book. Though, I was a little disappointed in the climax. not so much disappointed with Plantinga as myself. What the argument for deep discord between science and naturalism is, I may never know. I’ll probably have to order the book so I can brood.

Excellent if not a Little Complex

Dr. Plantinga has given us an excellent treatise on the relationship between science, theism, and naturalism. While many will judge this book on whether they believe its conclusions I.e. that science is more consistent with theism than naturalism, the proper evaluation will appreciate this work regardless of their own beliefs. That being said this book is not for the casual reader.

I Love this book!

This book presents an intellectually honest analysis of Science, Religion, Epistemology and Culture.
A great read!

Where the Heart of the Book Really Lies

Alvin Plantinga has given us a well thought out and considered entry into the philosophy of religion debate.

Two points to make: one about the contents, and one about the narration. Narration first.

Michael Butler's reading of the book came across as almost smarmy. His tone, unlike Plantinga's himself, carried a note of "We know better than you", dismissiveness, and generally conceit. It wasn't a good feel for such a topic, as if Christians are to attract people to Christ, they do well by sounding inclusive, not snotty.
His voice, too, was painfully soporific. I honestly struggled to stay awake listening to his telling, and that was a problem for someone hoping to get a broad view of the detailed arguments in the book and see how they fitted together. Audio books are hard for that in the first place (you can't exactly flip the pages back to compare one paragraph with another), so to find myself listening to shorter sections than I'd have liked was frustrating. And finally, his pronunciation, enunciation, and diction showed occasionally that he might well not have been at all familiar with the subject, the arguments, or indeed philosophy. Personally I'd have liked my philosophy narrator to give me the confidence that he was engaged with philosophy, rather than just the act of reading the book.

Second, the content. I'll break this down into roughly three parts: showing how atheism fails to discredit theistic views of "life, the universe, and everything"; showing how theism does a better job of explaining "life..."; and finally, the Big Reveal - showing how atheism is, on its own self-description, untrustworthy.

The first section was excellent. Close argumentation, a good understanding of the subject, and forensic dissections of "the enemy's" claims. Top stuff.

The second section was weaker. Often you were left with a feeling of "atheism fails to show this, but we've got God so we can assume we do it better". Broader arguments, less forensically executed, with promised conclusions that didn't quite feel fully constructed. Overall, interesting but incomplete. This was slightly disappointing.

Finally, the Big Reveal. Plantinga's argument here is quite simple, but extremely effective. I shan't ruin it by poor description, but it adds a very interesting tip to the battling Christian's (or other theist's) arrows.
What I will say, however, is that while the earlier two sections were robust and interesting, I was left wondering whether they were altogether necessary for the Reveal. Plantinga could well have simply given a story of atheistic cosmology / evolutionary theory, and then sprung his argument onto us. Nothing would have been harmed.

So we were given three books in one. A systematic dissection of atheist dogma; a broader and less watertight "case for God's place in cosmological arguments", and a Big Reveal of why theism is a more intellectually coherent position than atheism.

If you're happy to have three books in one, read by a superior-sounding yet sleep-inducing narrator, then this is the audiobook for you.

It's good. I recommend it. But be aware that you have to get past the narrator first, and that the "point" of the book isn't wholly reliant on the 80% of the book that comes before it!

wow

loved this book, but truth be told Philosophy is never an easy read or listen.

very clinical assessment of Naturalism and Evolutionary theories.

If logic and arguments are what you love, this will make a great read.

well done Plantinga, remaining true to a 20 years old argument