Episodios

  • The First Line of Defense
    Feb 20 2026
    Child sexual abuse is the conversation every father wants to avoid because the mere thought of it is paralyzing. But here is the hard truth: Silence is the predator’s greatest ally. Our discomfort is their opportunity. To be the true 'Sentinel' of our homes, we have to be willing to look at the 'unthinkable' so that we can prevent the 'irreparable.' and that’s exactly what we’re going to talk about in this episode.Veronica Thompson is a leading voice in trauma-informed, faith-based advocacy. She doesn't just talk about the statistics; she provides a blueprint for dads to build a culture of safety, to recognize the subtle 'grooming' behaviors that others might miss, and to know exactly how to lead if the worst-case scenario is suspected.Find the books Veronica mentioned in this episode here: https://linktr.ee/thefatherhoodchallengeWebsite: https://www.veronicathompson.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61586131773904Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/veronicathompsonlcsw/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/veronica-thompson-lcsw-4509464/Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastrhttps://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge00:03.32Jonathan GuerreroAs fathers, we are hardwired to be protectors. If a physical intruder broke into our homes tonight, most of us wouldn't hesitate to put our lives on the line to stand between that threat and our children.00:16.31Jonathan GuerreroWe lock our doors, we check the windows, and we stay vigilant against the dangers that we can see. But there is a threat that often bypasses the looks of the the locks and the windows.00:26.80VeronicaThank00:29.04Jonathan GuerreroIt's a threat that thrives in the shadows, in the silence, and painfully, often within the circles of trust that we believe are safe.00:40.60Jonathan GuerreroChild sexual abuse is the is the conversation every father wants to avoid because the mere thought of it is actually paralyzing. But here's the hard truth. Silence is the predator's greatest ally.00:54.36Jonathan GuerreroOur discomfort is their opportunity and their strength. To be the true sentinel of our homes, we have to be willing to look at the unthinkable so that we can prevent the ear so that we can prevent the irreparable. And that's exactly what we're going to do in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.01:16.07Jonathan GuerreroGreetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this episode called The First Line of Defense. And joining me is my guest, Veronica Thompson. Veronica is the leading voice in trauma-informed faith-based advocacy. She doesn't just talk about the statistics. She provides a blueprint for dads to build a culture of safety, to recognize the subtle grooming behaviors that often others might miss, and how to know exactly how to lead if the worst-case scenario is suspected. verona Veronica, thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge.01:52.18VeronicaThank you, Jonathan, for having me. I'm really excited to to talk to you and to have a conversation about how dads can support their families and their children and and keep them safe from from individuals who would like to harm them.02:06.17Jonathan GuerreroThis really, really is a heavy lift for many men. For the dad who is listening right now and feels that immediate tightness in his chest just hearing this topic or is checking that his gun is somewhere nearby, why is his emotional presence and awareness actually the most powerful defensive weapon?02:26.30VeronicaYes, um and his presence most certainly is the most powerful defensive weapon. So first for that dad, I just want to say take a breath with me. Just, um you know, kind of breathe in um and take a slow breath out and exhale because It is understandable that just the mere idea of your child being sexually abused just raises up really strong defenses.02:53.82Veronicaum But one of the things that I think a lot of dads, um what they want to do is they want to make it clear to their families, to their wives and their children, that they're there for them and they're going to defend them and that that if anyone tries to harm them, there are going to be huge consequences.03:14.68Veronicaum And I know that that comes from a a loving place in the heart of a father. The thing about it, though, is that um I've worked with survivors and families for a very long time.03:28.34VeronicaAnd one of the most common things that I hear is, I was afraid to tell my dad because I was afraid he would kill the perpetrator. I was afraid he was going to um just not be able to handle it and that something really bad was going to happen.03:43.86VeronicaAnd so, again, that is a very understandable um emotional reaction to have that, you know, if somebody harms my child, there's going to be severe consequences.03:...
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  • The Blueprint & The Mundane
    Feb 19 2026
    In this episode we’re talking about moving from 'Passive Spectator' to 'Lead Architect.' We are diving into a movement that treats fatherhood with the same level of intentionality as a high-stakes professional venture. We will explore how to close the 'engagement gap' and build a relationship with our children that is rooted in more than just shared DNA.Joining us is Jon Hord, the founder of The Engaged Father Project. Jon is on a mission to help men reclaim their place at the center of their families, providing the tools and the blueprints necessary to build a lasting legacy.To learn more about The Engaged Father Project or get coaching visit: https://theengagedfatherproject.com/Join me, Jon and The Engaged Fatherhood Project community on school at: https://www.skool.com/the-engaged-father-project-9143/aboutSpecial thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastrhttps://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge00:06.52Jonathan GuerreroIn the world of business, we wouldn't dream of launching a major initiative without a blueprint, a strategy, and a dedicated team. We track our metrics. We pivot when things aren't working and we stay engaged until the project is a success.00:22.04Jonathan GuerreroBut for many of us, when we walk through our own front doors at the end of a long day, we go on autopilot. We become present absent dads physically in the room, but mentally we're elsewhere.00:36.82Jonathan GuerreroWe've mastered the art of being a provider, but we've forgotten the art of being a participant. Fatherhood isn't something that should just happen to us. It's a role that requires our best thinking, our highest energy, and a relentless commitment to showing up, not just for the big moments, but for the messy, quiet, and mundane ones in between.00:59.83Jonathan GuerreroToday, we're talking about moving from a passive spectator to a lead architect. We are diving into a movement into a movement that treats fatherhood with the same level of intentionality as high-stakes professional ventures.01:15.26Jonathan GuerreroWe will explore how the engagement gap, we will explore the engagement gap and build a relationship with our children that is rooted in more than just shared DNA. And we're going to explore all of this in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.01:31.88Jonathan GuerreroGreetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for joining me. And also joining us is John Horde. John is the founder of the Engage Father Project.01:42.74Jonathan GuerreroJohn is on a mission to help men reclaim their place at the center of their families, providing the tools and the blueprints necessary to build a lasting legacy.01:53.46Jonathan GuerreroJohn, welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.01:55.99Jon Hordah Thank you so much for having me on, Jonathan. I do appreciate it.02:00.28Jonathan GuerreroJohn, i got to ask, what is your favorite dad joke?02:06.20Jon Hordum Okay, here goes. What do you call a fish that wears bow tie?02:12.69Jonathan GuerreroWhat do you call a fish that wears a bow ti I've never heard this one.02:18.03Jon HordSophisticated. Okay.02:19.77Jonathan Guerrerolove this one.02:23.99Jonathan Guerrerolove this one02:30.78Jonathan GuerreroSo good.02:31.86Jon HordYeah.02:33.73Jonathan GuerreroNow I got to share this one with my son.02:38.01Jonathan GuerreroWell, John, what is the story behind why and how you started the Engage Father Project?02:46.58Jon HordWell, i i worked um in a corporate job for about 20 years. It was like 18 and a half years. And I was on this path that so many people are familiar with, right? It was sort of that American dream path. you know Go to school and get good grades and go to college and get a job and make a good living, start a family, get promoted,03:11.77Jon Hordmake as much money as you can and then retire. Right. It was that it was on that track and, you know, had some kids, two kids along the way. And I got to a point where, you know, the material boxes were being checked. Right.03:30.74Jon HordAnd it was like, well, I should feel really happy and fulfilled, right? Because I've been working for so long to get to this point. It was like I was running toward a finish line or like, you know, running on a rainbow looking for that pot of gold. And I got to the end where it's like, well, it should be here, right?03:49.08Jon HordAnd not only was it not there, But my life was filled with more stress and more anxiety than I'd ever been experiencing. And it was significantly affecting, you know, not only me, but my ability to be the husband that I wanted to be for my wife and the father that I wanted to be for my kids. And so it was this really painful and jarring experience.04:16.54Jon Hordmoment or really I refer to it now as an opportunity as hard as it was i wouldn't give that ...
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  • Twice a Father
    Feb 15 2026

    In this episode, we are talking about the 'grandfamilies'—the men who are doing it all over again, with more gray hair but also with a much deeper perspective on what actually matters.

    Joining us is Jerry Culver, a man who understands the grit and the grace required for this specific calling because he is on second watch as we call it. If you're raising your grandkids as Jerry is, he wants you to know you're not alone.


    Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/


    Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

    https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge





    Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations
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  • The Silent Crisis
    Feb 11 2026
    If you're a new dad and you’ve been feeling like a stranger in your own home, or if the joy you expected has been replaced by a heavy, silent struggle, this episode is for you. You aren't a 'bad dad,' and you aren't weak. You are navigating a massive neurological, hormonal, and lifestyle shift that no one warned you about. There is hope and there are answers.Dr. Shoshannah Guerrero has her PhD. in Marriage and Family Therapy and Dr Rachael Schmitz is the sole author for her first publication within the American Journal of Nursing on her dissertation work, the lived experience of fathers with paternal postpartum depression.You can contact Dr Schmitz at rschmitz@coastal.eduYou can reach Dr. Guerrero at sguerrero.lmft@gmail.comSpecial thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastrhttps://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge00:05.55Jonathan GuerreroWe've all seen the commercials. the new The new dad glowing with pride, effortlessly rocking and a sleeping infant while his life... while his life feels perfectly in sync.00:16.89Jonathan GuerreroBut for many men, the reality of the new fatherhood looks and feels very different. Instead of a glow, there's a fog. Instead of instant connection, there's a crushing sense of isolation, irritability, or the feeling that you're falling ah that you're failing a task, that you're failing a test that you didn't even know you were taking.00:38.55Jonathan GuerreroIn our culture, we expect dads to be the rock. We are told to man up, to support the mother, to bury our own struggles under the weight of provision. But the data tells us a different story.00:50.74Jonathan GuerreroOne in 10 fathers will experience paternal postpartum depression. And yet, because it often shows up as anger or withdrawal rather than sadness, it goes undiagnosed and untreated.01:04.73Jonathan GuerreroIf you've been feeling like a stranger in your own home, or if the joy you expected has been replaced by a heavy, silent struggle, this episode is for you. You aren't a bad dad, and you aren't weak.01:18.45Jonathan GuerreroYou are navigating a massive neurological, hormonal, and lifestyle shift that no one warned you about. There is hope, and there are answers in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.01:33.18Jonathan GuerreroGreetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this episode called The Silent Crisis. I have two guests with me. My wife, Dr. Shoshana Guerrero, who has her PhD in marriage and family therapy, and Dr. Rachel Schmitz, the sole author of her first publication within the American Journal of Nursing on her dissertation work, The Lived Experience of Fathers with Paternal Postpartum Depression.01:59.06Jonathan GuerreroWelcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.02:01.75Rachael Schmitz Thank you.02:03.06Jonathan GuerreroThanks so much. So let's talk about, Rachel, let's start with you. You've noted that for men, depression is often, it often looks like sadness.02:13.88Jonathan GuerreroIt looks like a short fuse sometimes. Why does the male brain often funnel emotional pain into irritability or rage? And how can a dad tell the difference between new parent stress and clinical postpartum depression? Yeah.02:30.39Rachael Schmitz So for fathers, um they don't often manifest in the ways that we think about when we think about depression. Most people, when you talk to them about depression, they think about sadness, crying, a lot of those very typical depressive type symptoms. In fathers, they can manifest in very different ways, like you said. The reason behind that I found in my study was that a lot of the men felt very isolated.03:01.85Rachael Schmitz They felt very confused. They felt very frustrated by the um transition. They didn't really feel prepared. um a lot of them felt very helpless.03:14.07Rachael Schmitz um So a lot of different things happening at the same time, causing a lot of those different symptoms. And for some of the fathers in particular, they um identified the depression because they were so irritable or they started being very angry in situations that would not normally make them very angry.03:40.31Jonathan GuerreroInteresting. So they did they recognize that even they basically recognize this even in themselves, they could tell when those symptoms were coming on.03:50.01Rachael Schmitz They did, and oftentimes it was their partner that just said, you know, I noticed that you are not really yourself. ah Maybe you're isolating a little bit.04:03.29Rachael Schmitz um So a lot of their partners did recognize some changes, whether they were able to kind of pinpoint what exactly was going on um kind of depended on the relationship. But most of the, uh,04:20.14Rachael Schmitz partners did notice that something was happening.04:25.40Jonathan GuerreroMany dads feel a deep sense of guilt ...
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  • The 24-Hour Reset
    Feb 9 2026

    In this episode, we are exploring the ancient wisdom of the Sabbath through the lens of the modern father. We’re talking about why 'rest' is actually a high-level leadership move, and how the simple act of putting down the phone and picking up the family rhythm can heal the bond between a father and his children. We’ll be diving into the 'why' and the 'how' of creating a day that is set apart—not just as a day off, but as a day of restoration.

    Joining us for this incredible conversation are two people who understand this rhythm deeply. Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, a world-renowned guide in Jewish wisdom and host of the Everyday Judaism podcast.and Reena Friedman Watts, the high-energy host of the famous Better Call Daddy podcast.


    To listen to the "Hey, Rabbi!" podcast with Reena Friedman Watts and Rabbi Aryeh Wolbe, visit: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOq8yL822A1EzPVQzuhxTYZdVPX3zzIKH&si=ztQKgF1roudvr4-f


    You can learn more or listen to Reena on the Better Call Daddy podcast here: https://bettercalldaddy.com/ or on any major podcast distributor like Apple Podcasts and Spotify.


    To listen to the collection of all of Rabbi Wolbe's podcasts visit: https://collection.transistor.fm/



    Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/


    Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

    https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge



    Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations
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  • The Generation Bridge
    Feb 4 2026
    In this episode, we are exploring the frontlines of youth leadership and fatherhood with a man who has dedicated his life to bridging the generation gap. He is the founder of Generation Youth, an organization committed to empowering young people by equipping the adults in their lives to lead with heart and intentionality. We’re talking about how to build a legacy that outlasts your paycheck and how to unlock the hidden potential in your children by simply turning your heart toward home. Our guest is James McLamb. James is the founder and CEO of Generation Youth Coaching. he's also an author, podcast host, and youth speaker. His passion is empowering young and strengthening families earning him a reputation as one of America’s foremost experts on youth development.To connect with James McLamb or learn more about Generation Youth Coaching and their podcast visit: https://www.generation-youth.com/Follow Generation Youth on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/generationziglarFollow Generation Youth at: https://www.instagram.com/generation__youth/Follow James McLamb on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-mclamb-74a72746/Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastrhttps://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge00:05.34Jonathan Guerreroevery generation Every generation faces a unique set of challenges, but the fundamental needs of a child remain unchanged. The need for a father who is not just physically present, but emotionally and spiritually engaged.00:21.08Jonathan Guerrerostatistic tell us that a sobering so Statistics tell us a sobering story about the gap left behind when fathers are absent. But today, we aren't focused on the problem.00:33.24Jonathan GuerreroWe are focused on restoration. There is an ancient mandate that speaks of turning the hearts of fathers to their children, it It's a beautiful image, but in a world of digital distractions and high-pressure careers, how does a modern dad actually make that turn?00:52.25Jonathan GuerreroHow do we move from being roommates with our kids to being the mentors and teachers that they desperately need?00:59.06James McLambThank you.01:01.30Jonathan GuerreroToday, we are exploring the we are we are exploring the front lines of youth leadership and fatherhood with a man who has dedicated his life to bridging the generational gap. He is the founder of generational Generation Youth, an organization committed to empowering young people by equipping the adults in their lives to lead with a heart and intentional.01:23.83Jonathan GuerreroAnd intentionally, we're talking about how to build a legacy that outlasts your paycheck and how to unlock the hidden potential in your children by simply turning your heart towards home.01:44.06Jonathan GuerreroAnd we're going to explore all of this in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.01:51.22Jonathan GuerreroGreetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my son and co-host Isaac. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge. The episode title is The Generation Bridge. Joining us is James McLamb.02:03.10Jonathan GuerreroJames, your work at Generation Youth sits at the intersection of leadership and legacy. Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.02:10.97James McLambI so appreciate the invitation to join you today, and I'm so so excited about our conversation and sharing our thoughts about fatherhood and and just you and I learning more together with your son as well.02:24.98Jonathan GuerreroSo here's my favorite question. What is your favorite dad joke?02:30.74James McLambOh, you put me on the spot. i don't... i And I normally have a ah slew of them, but none of them come to mind because I read a an article probably a couple of years ago that said that children whose fathers tell them dad jokes, especially the really embarrassing ones, develop more resilience than those who don't have to live through that. So it's beneficial for your children for their dads to tell them those cringy, sometimes not funny dad jokes. But...03:04.76James McLambI don't have the joke to come to my head right now. I wish I did, but I gave you a stat instead.03:11.15Jonathan GuerreroThat'll work. That's just fine. All right. Well, let's start here. What's your story behind how and why you got involved with generational Generation Youth Coaching?03:24.41James McLambWell, we saw a need, a desperate need for young people to have empowered adults, adults who had the skills, the understanding, the resources, tools in their toolbox to help them thrive, that could help young people thrive.03:41.27James McLambWe saw that there was a gap there. And that we could help feel that, that we could pour into adults who care about those who want to help coaching and that we could equip them with the skills, the resources, the mindset, the tools ...
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  • Devin Coleman on Resilience, Legacy, and Why Dads Matter Most
    Feb 2 2026

    In this episode, we are diving deep into the 'Fatherhood Cause' with a man who has made it his life’s mission to ensure no dad walks alone. He is an author, a speaker, and a relentless advocate for the comprehensive role of fathers in our communities. He’s lived through adversity, he’s navigated the hurdles, and he has emerged with a blueprint for what it means to be a 'world-class' dad in the modern age.

    We’re exploring how to break the chains of the past, why men’s mental health is the secret weapon of a healthy home, and why society flourishes when we stop treating fatherhood as an afterthought and start treating it as a primary solution.

    Our guest is Devin Coleman, known to many as 'The Fatherhood Advocate.'


    To lean more about Devin Coleman, visit: https://www.devindcoleman.com/

    Connect with Devin on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FatherhoodNavigator/

    Connect with Devin on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/devindcoleman/?hl=en


    Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/


    Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr

    https://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge




    Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations
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    28 m
  • The Present Provider
    Jan 29 2026
    In this episode, we are talking about a role that is often misunderstood, sometimes undervalued, but arguably the most high-stakes job a man can take: The Stay-at-Home Dad.Joining us to share his journey and his 'why' is Paul Granger. Paul has navigated the highs and lows of stay-at-home fatherhood and has emerged with a powerful message for every dad who feels like he’s bucking the trend.To connect with Paul Granger or learn more about his ministry, visit: https://www.wheredidyouseegod.com/Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastrhttps://zencastr.com/?via=thefatherhoodchallenge00:06.07Jonathan GuerreroAt every backyard barbecue or professional networking event, the same question inevitably comes up. So what do you do? For decades, the correct masculine answer has been tied to the job title, a salary bracket, or a corporate ladder. We've been conditioned to believe that a father's primary contribution to his family is the paycheck he brings through the door.00:29.30Jonathan GuerreroBut in 2026, the definition of a provider is shifting. Dads are realizing that while a bank account provides for a child's needs, a father's presence provides for the child's soul.00:42.10Jonathan GuerreroToday, we're talking about a role that is often misunderstood, sometimes undervalued, but arguably the most high stakes job that a man can take. It's the stay at home dad.00:55.34Jonathan Guerrerowe're driving We're diving into we're dive into why being the home front leader isn't a career break. It's a strategic investment. We're exploring how to navigate the ego shift of leaving the traditional workplace, how to handle the social side eye, and why men who are home with their kids should be the proudest guys in the room.01:16.79Jonathan GuerreroThis isn't just about childcare. It's about intentional legacy, which we will explore in just a moment. So don't go anywhere.01:33.30Jonathan GuerreroGreetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me and my son and co-host, Isaac. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Father Challenge. Joining us to share his journey and his why is Paul Granger.01:45.78Jonathan GuerreroPaul has navigated the highs and lows of stay-at-home fatherhood and has emerged with a powerful message for every dad who feels like he's bucking the trend. Paul, welcome to the program.01:57.82Paul GrangerIt is great to be here.02:01.58Jonathan GuerreroLet's start here. When you made the first transition to being at home, what was the hardest part of your old identity to let go?02:09.78Paul GrangerThat is a good question. i think The reality is, is there is this set in mindset of how life is supposed to work. And when before the transition, my wife and I were living into it. All right. We have a mortgage. We have bills.02:27.96Paul GrangerWe have to do this, that and the other. I had been working in ministry. My wife had been a teacher. So neither of us had ever made a lot of money, but we were getting by. And when I unexpectedly lost my job, I found myself in this very difficult space where people were telling me, you need to find a job right now because you need money in order to survive. And that's logical.02:50.04Paul GrangerBut i found this opportunity to lean into something very unexpected and untraditional. I've been full-time volunteer ministry since losing my job. So that was almost, that was a little over seven and a half years ago.03:06.01Paul GrangerAnd when I stepped into it, there was no guidebook. And I had to own the reality that whoever I was before, however I functioned, you know, getting a paycheck every two weeks, working at nine to five, being able to tell people clearly what it is I do, what it is I don't do without any side eyes. I was going have to be willing to let that go because where we were in life, ah it was...03:33.98Paul Grangerimportant for me to be there for my family. It was important for me to be flexible, particularly when my wife got back into full-time teaching. For anybody that knows teachers, you know that in order to take off for work, you have to do even more work. And so it is not easy for a teacher to be able to Be home if a kid is sick, take them to the doctors. And so for many years now, that has been the role that I've had to sit in04:05.72Paul GrangerAnd what's what I found really amazing is that the hard moments are when I think about what other people might think of me, what other people might say, what they when I have had people lean into that, well, the husband's supposed to be the provider, you know you need to take care of your family.04:25.94Paul Grangerah but the But the reality is, I have been able to be present in my kids' lives in ways that I never thought were possible.04:36.22Paul GrangerBecause prior to the shift, eight hours of my day at least were locked out ...
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