TRANSCRIPT:
Audible Originals presents Your Mama's Kitchen, hosted by Michele Norris.
Gayle King: Living in Turkey, breakfast was not a big deal. And I went to my friend Halley's house and I had 13 pieces of bread. And, you know, they kept asKing: me, Would you like more? It didn't occur to me to stop after, say, number four. And when I went and told my mom, she was mortified. She called them up and was very apologetic and said, I'm so sorry. But I didn't know. I was a little kid, they kept, as I said, 'Mom, they kept asKing: me!'
Michele Norris: Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen, the podcast that explores how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens we grew up in as kids. I'm Michele Norris. The kitchen is the emotional heartbeat of our homes. So many important things happen there meals, memories, laughter and sometimes tough stuff. All of it simmers inside us forever and shapes who we become in interesting and sometimes surprising ways. The kitchen is the most important room in the home, even for folks who don't like to cook all that much. And that includes our guest today, Gayle King. You know Gayle King, she's a titan of television broadcasting, going head to head with big name politicians, artists and controversial figures who find themselves on the hot seat. Well, that's not the topic of today's conversation. We're here to talk about Gayle, and she always handles herself with grace and grit. She gets high ratings and high marks because she pulls interesting answers out of people. Gayle King, I'm so glad that we could do this together.
Gayle King: Hi Michele, I'm so glad to see you. Thank you for asKing: me.
Michele Norris: Thank you for rolling off the air and rolling over.
Gayle King: I'm only here because it's you.
Michele Norris: Oh, well, thank you.
Gayle King: I will just put that out there
Michele Norris: Okay now I feel... Say that again. We're just going to share that...
Gayle King: I'm only here because of Michele. Actually, I'm on my way to the airport, and I delayed my flight an hour and a half so I could be here with you.
Michele Norris: Okay, now I'm feeling I'm puffed up. I'm getting puffy in my chair. Woo! Well, this is a show where we talk to people about their mama's kitchens. And you have had an interesting path in life because you spent time in Chevy Chase. You spent time overseas in Ankara, Turkey.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: You spent time in the Bay Area. When I asked that question, what kitchen does your mind first go to? Tell me about your mama's kitchen.
Gayle King: Well, I struggled with this because my mom was an okay cook. I actually called my sisters to say, Do you guys remember?
Michele Norris: You have three sisters, right?
Gayle King: Yeah, I have three sisters. I'm the oldest of three girls, and I've been told that I'm bossy, but I like to think I have executive skills. But I am the oldest of four girls. And because I said, Guys, I really don't have any stories about the kitchen. And they said, Don't you remember when they went, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that I did remember.
Michele Norris: Okay, so what, what did they remind you of?
Gayle King: Well, Thanksgiving was a big deal because she did all the cooking, but, you know, she did all the cooking always. She had a thing that we always each had to slap the turkey before it went in the oven.
Michele Norris: Wait, what?
Gayle King: Yes, exactly right.
Michele Norris: Wait was this.
Gayle King: Slap the turkey.
Michele Norris: Was this superstition?
Gayle King: Was it because my mom said, I think that was just her way of engaging us? She said that it made the turkey more tender and so we would all have to come in the kitchen, line up and do a... (slap)
Michele Norris: On a raw turkey?
Gayle King: Yeah. You know, he was all basted and all that good stuff and we'd all slap it and she said that would make it more tender. And now all of my sisters do that.
Michele Norris: With their kids and their family? Everybody has to come in and slap the turkey, okay? They're going to be people all over America slapping their turkeys on Thanksgiving.
Gayle King: My mom said that it made it more tender.
Michele Norris: Okay.
Gayle King: So I do remember that. I do remember we used to have on Saturday night, it was family game night. So we played games like Sorry. Do you remember Sorry?
Michele Norris: I remember Sorry.
Gayle King: Parcheesi. I was always yellow. Yellow to this day is still my favorite color. I always wanted to be...
Michele Norris: You look good in the yellow.
Gayle King: I love yellow because it's a color of sunshine and butter. Two things I like very much. I make no excuses. I love yellow. My kitchen is yellow. It just it's a color that just makes me happy. But Saturday night, we had game night in the dinner every Saturday was the same. I had forgotten about this till my sister Sharon reminded me. The dinner was always the same Saturday night. Guess what it was?
Michele Norris: Because I read a little bit about you. I think I know the answer.
Gayle King: I don't think I've ever talked about it. So let's see what you have.
Michele Norris: Was it Sloppy Joes?
Gayle King: Yeah. How did you know that?
Michele Norris: Because you have talked about it. You were quoted as saying Saturday was Sloppy Joe Night.
Gayle King: Really?
Michele Norris: Yeah.
Gayle King: When did I do that?
Michele Norris: I don't remember the date, but I do remember that you said something about Sloppy Joes.
Gayle King: You're absolutely right. Sloppy Joes and french fries.
Michele Norris: I still love sloppy Joes.
Gayle King: I do, too!
Michele Norris: So next time we eat together, I'm serving you Sloppy Joes.
Gayle King: I love Sloppy Joes.
Michele Norris: So that was what you had every Saturday.
Gayle King: Every Saturday yup.
Michele Norris: Sloppy Joes and game night?
Gayle King: Yes, every Saturday, weekends, Sunday. We always had a great Sunday breakfast. That was coffee cake, scrambled eggs with cheese and bacon. We had really great breakfasts. Maybe that's why breakfast is still my favorite meal. Even today. A very seldom get to eat it because I had these terrible crappy hours when I got up, you know, 3:00 in the morning.
Michele Norris: Yeah you get up at 2:30, 3:00 in the morning?
Gayle King: 3:24, I get up at 3:24. There's a method to my madness.
Michele Norris: Why is it 3:24?
Gayle King: Because there's something that I watch on a competing channel that comes on at 3:25. And so I always set my alarm for 3:24 so I can watch this thing and then I have three snoozes on my alarm and then I'm off to the races because I bathe. I took a bath this morning. You'll be glad to know, but breakfast today is still one of my favorite meals.
Michele Norris: And you can do that on the weekends.
Gayle King: Yeah. Yeah.
Michele Norris: So your mom like to make big breakfasts often?
Gayle King: She did.
Michele Norris: Did she make coffee cake?
Gayle King: Well, it was Sara Lee.
Michele Norris: Yeah. Sara Lee coffee cake is... I love those little boxed delicacies.
Gayle King: It was Sara Lee. But I loved her scrambled eggs and cheese, and I loved her bacon. And then we would have sometimes pancakes, too.
Michele Norris: So you lived in Turkey?
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: As a child. Because your father was stationed there?
Gayle King: My father was an electronic engineer who worked for the government.
Michele Norris: Okay.
Gayle King: So there's been all sorts of speculation. Oh, you know, your father was CIA. I have never been told that. I was never aware of that. But in Turkey, we lived in a neighborhood. We lived in a regular neighborhood. That's why I know my address. Otuz dokuz, which stands for 39. Eitan Sokak, Sokak is street. Maybus Evleri is the name of the neighborhood. I can only remember Merhaba Nasılsın, which is "Hello, how are you?" So whenever I get into a car and if the driver happens to be Turkish, if ever I'm at a party and someone says I'm from Turkey, I go Merhaba Nasılsın and then they start talking. That's really all I know. But I'm very proud of myself that I even remember that.
Michele Norris: What was it like going to school in Turkey as an American kid?
Gayle King: Well, I was at an American school, so I really didn't know the difference. And when you're in first grade, you're just sort of rolling with the punches. I didn't even have a great appreciation for living in Turkey. You know, when you're little, you just go where your mom and dad are. You don't look at the global experience. I remember traveling as a kid. We did a lot of traveling. Vacation was in Greece or Paris. And I can remember saying to my dad, "why..." We're at the Acropolis. "Why do we have to sit here and look at these rocks? It's so hot. Why can't we just go back to the hotel to go swimming?" And he said, "One day, you'll appreciate it." And I do. I look at the picture, I go, "This is me. In sixth grade, I was in the Acropolis." But living in Turkey, breakfast was not a big deal. And they had continental breakfast. So it was just a little bread and some tea. Chai. And I went to my friend Halley's house and I had 13 pieces of bread. Little things. And, you know, they kept asking me, Would you like more? It didn't occur to me to stop after, say, number four.
Michele Norris: Cause in America, we're used to these big truck driver breakfasts.
Gayle King: Yeah, we're used to it. So I was hungry. And when I went and told my mom, she was mortified. She called them up and was very apologetic and said, I'm so sorry, you know. But I didn't know as a little kid, I said, "Mom, they kept asking me."
Michele Norris: Oh, you didn't want to offend and turn something down.
Gayle King: I wasn't even thinking about offending. I was just thinking, yes, I'm still hungry. So yes, please keep it coming. Please.
Michele Norris: So you lived there until sixth grade and your parents then moved back to the States?
Gayle King: Yes. We were in Maryland.
Michele Norris:And you went to Chevy Chase, right?
Gayle King: Yeah, we were in Chevy Chase, Maryland. Yeah, we were there. We weren't there very long because we were there maybe 18 months because I went to junior high and high school in California and Menlo Park. So from seventh grade to 12th grade. I remember they did a story in the newspaper about our family being an American family who had just moved from Turkey, and they were talking about East/West influences. And I remember the photographer coming in and taking pictures and we all had to wear dresses that day. And my mom saying, you know, "sit here." I do remember that. But California, I ultimately want to end up in California. By the way, I still love California. It's cliche...
Michele Norris: We can move there and grow old together.
Gayle King: Yes. Oh my god.
Michele Norris: That's, that's where I want to land.
Gayle King: It's cliche to say that weather, the weather. But the weather is so fantastic and the vibe is just very different. Most of my formative years, I would say, would be from seventh grade to being in California.
Michele Norris: And I can see that because we're together. You smile in a different way when you talk about California.
Gayle King: Do I?
Michele Norris: Yeah, you do. I can see that those are those are good memories. Tell me about that kitchen. Describe it for me and tell me about your mom in control in that particular...
Gayle King: Well, it was a very open kitchen, which is sort of the California lifestyle. My dad traveled a lot, and I remember when daddy was away, we always got to go to McDonald's and we thought that was a great trip. I also remember coming back from Turkey being told, "'You talk funny, you're black, but you talk funny. Why do you talk like a white girl?" I was called on Sarah. I was called Oreo. All that stuff.
Michele Norris: By the black kids.
Gayle King: By the black kids. Yeah. Yeah.
Michele Norris: And like, you should have talked with a little more... vernacular.
Gayle King: Yeah. Why? Why do you talk funny and regular? Yeah and I remember deliberately flunking a test, getting a D because I couldn't bring myself to get a F, getting a D because I thought that would make you... Cause they said, "You think you're so smart, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And my dad saying to me, now, I know you know this. He used to call me GP because my middle name is Patrice. So he would call me GP, "I know you know this. So why did you get a D?" I said, "Because I just wanted the kids to like me." And he said, "Well, do they like you any better now?" I went, "No." He goes, "Well, don't do that anymore."
Michele Norris: Life lesson.
Gayle King: Yeah, it was a life lesson.
Michele Norris: There's a little picture I keep in a drawer just to kind of remind me. I don't know if you sometimes need to get in touch with that young person or know it's going to be okay. And it's a picture of me with glasses, braces and afro puffs.
Gayle King: Oh, very cute.
Michele Norris: Nuh-uh. Not not cute at all. And for a while, a headgear, you know.
Gayle King: Yeah, but look at you now. A stunner. It's all paid off.
Michele Norris: It's, you know, we go through it.
Gayle King: The glasses, the braces, the afro puffs.
Michele Norris: You know, we get through it.
Gayle King: I went through it in terms of I look at black and white pictures of me. Maybe I was fourth grade because I was told your lips are fuller as a little black kid. There's pictures of me literally biting my lips because I'm thinking, God, my lips are a little big. Cat eyeglasses, not cute. Headband and, you know, bangs. It rolled like this.
Michele Norris: Oh, my goodness. The bangs. The bangs that you slept with the little sponge roll curler...
Gayle King: Yes that was pink.
Michele Norris: On top of your forehead.
Gayle King: That was pink. Yes. I had one of those.
Michele Norris: Sausage bangs, little sausage roll on top of your forehead.
Gayle King: I had one of those. And now people are paying to get lips like mine.
Michele Norris: Yeah.
Gayle King: They're paying to get lips like mine. Which I think is kind of funny to me.
Michele Norris: I'm sorry I have a Tuesday appointment lip injection.
Gayle King: Yes. Which is kind of funny to me.
Michele Norris: You know when you go through a tough period like that, the kitchen can be the refueling station.
Gayle King: Yeah.
Michele Norris: The place where you sit at that linoleum table or whatever, table, wooden table, whatever it was. And your siblings, even if they made fun of you, they're your posse.
Gayle King: Yeah.
Michele Norris: You know, your mom serves up something that makes you feel good. You know, at the end of the day... Was that a sort of emotional fallout shelter for you, that space?
Gayle King: No, I honestly wouldn't say that because I didn't come home with a lot of self trauma. So I really didn't. I think for whatever reason, it didn't weigh me down. So when I came home, I was just happy to be home. My mom was always there.
Michele Norris: She did not work outside of the house?
Gayle King: She did not. It's interesting. My parents met at Howard University and my mother was planning to go to law school and then she thought that she had a tumor and the tumor turned out to be me. And so I often wonder what her life would have been like then she was a stay at home mom, and I know that part of her was very frustrated because I know that she always wanted to do more and could be more. And she ended up working later on in life. She was a secretary for big muckety-muck, but I always know that she thought she was so much bigger than that. And had it not been for me because then it started the ball rolling what her life would have been like. She was always very smart, always a really good writer, but it was always glad for her to be there when we came home. For us, for us. And I can remember I was on some kind of volley cheerleading or drill team or something. Or if there was a class project, I would say "My mom could do it, my mom could do it" without ever thinking, does she want to do it?
Michele Norris: Oh, so you were volunteering your mom to.
Gayle King: All the time. "My mom could do it. My mom could do it." And I would ask her and she would say, "Sure." And she never said, you know, you need to stop volunteering me. Never. And it was only later in life when I had my own children where I went, this is a lot of friggin work.
Michele Norris: Yeah, but, you know, that's a gift that she was able to do that.
Gayle King: Yes, exactly. Right.
Michele Norris: Because on the other side of the coin you're a working mom, you're thinking, I wish I could go on that field trip.
Gayle King: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michele Norris: You know, I wish I could be there for biological character day. I wish I could be there to help the kids get in their Halloween costumes.
Gayle King: Yeah, also true.
Michele Norris: For both of you that you could be together. I read somewhere that you had said that you were talking to a friend of yours who had just written a book about grief, and she had asked you what your kids knew about your mom.
Gayle King: Yes, I know.
Michele Norris: And you thought that they actually knew a lot because you're.
Gayle King: Exactly. They were a little guys.
Michele Norris: They were so young that they really didn't get to spend a lot of time.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: Your friend who had written the book, had asked the kids, well, what do you remember about, about Gayle's mom. And you were surprised to realize that they didn't remember as much as you thought.
Gayle King: Yeah.
Michele Norris: Because you hadn't talked about it.
Gayle King: Right? Right. And what they did remember wasn't good. The what they remembered was she smoked a lot and you didn't like it. That's what they remembered.
Michele Norris: Isn't it interesting what, kids hear?
Gayle King: Yes. Because I'm thinking, oh, surely they knew the part when my mom drove us here and when we did this and we did that. And it was so interesting that they said "We just remember she smoked a lot and you didn't like it." Well, it's true. She did smoke a lot and I didn't like it. And then when they said that, I went, whoa, I got to do a better job, you know, of telling them they did get to meet her, but they were so young. They don't really have real concrete memories. That's why as I sit here today, you know, favorite daughter Kirby's had a son, my first grandson. I could eat this kid up, Luka, who's now 19 months.
Michele Norris: We've all got to meet him thanks to Instagram. He is just delicious.
Gayle King: Oh, I could eat him up. I just saw him this past weekend and he just makes my heart sing about everything. But my biggest wish now is that I live long enough that he gets to have a sense of me. Like if I go now, he won't really remember me. He won't. And Kirby and Will, they were like four and five or in five, two or three. But they don't really remember. They don't really remember. You know, they've seen pictures and that kind of thing. But it's not the same. And I just I've already said to Kirby, I want to be the one to take him to Lion King. I called dibs on that. So I'm just hoping that, you know, I live long enough for that.
Michele Norris: We’ll have more coming up with Gayle King, after the break.
Michele Norris: Your mother's name was Peggy.
Gayle King: Peggy, yeah.
Michele Norris: And there there is this picture. She's a very pretty woman.
Gayle King: She was.
Michele Norris: There's a picture of her. She's in a white-
Gayle King: White dress.
Michele Norris: Yes. You know the picture I'm talking about.
Gayle King: Green shirt. That's in California.
Michele Norris: It looks like it was snapped for Harper's Bazaar.
Gayle King: Yeah, has a little fur coat.
Michele Norris: Yes, yes.
Gayle King: Oh, I know that I love that picture.
Michele Norris: She came to slay.
Gayle King: She and my dad were going out that night. She was always very elegant, always very classy. I know that picture very well. She had her hair up in, like, a bun. Yeah.
Michele Norris: Tell me more about her.
Gayle King: The beauty of my mother was that when she died, we all thought we were her favorite daughter. She was so good. We all thought we were the favorite because we all have individual stories about, "Well, I called her and she said, and when I needed, she was dadadada..." so we all thought we were her favorite daughter and I think that just says everything. I personally don't have a favorite because I think between Kirby and Will, my heart breaks and aches for both of them. But I know many parents, I know many parents who actually do have a favorite, but we all thought we were her favorite.
Michele Norris: I love that you were so close to Kirby and Will.
Gayle King: Yes. Still. Still.
Michele Norris: You travel with them. We get to watch you live out loud through the wonders of Instagram and so we see you out in the world.
Gayle King: You know, it's funny. Oprah told me years ago, your children are adults. They do not like traveling with you. I go, I beg to differ. We have the best time. My kids love traveling with me because we really we really actually like each other, love each other and like being together. Yeah. I'll see you guys, too.
Michele Norris: Yeah. No we.
Gayle King: Hello pot? Hello, pot. I'm talking to you.
Michele Norris: Yeah we're called the No Joes.
Gayle King: No, I've seen you guys. You get it.
Michele Norris: Well, you know one of the things I realize is that if you don't do that, you miss out on the opportunity to get to know them at this really interesting stage in life.
Gayle King: Yeah, stage yes.
Michele Norris: You know, I actually I'm glad they still like us and they still want to roll with us and we still, you know, roll deep.
Gayle King: And this is the thing I loved every single stage. I really did. You know, I would think, well, this is my favorite stage. This is my favorite stage. Then you go on to the next stage, you go, Oh, I like this. And they are my favorite people to hang with.
Michele Norris: That's a beautiful thing.
Michele Norris: Gayle's mother was the emotional Northstar in her life, but Gail wound up following a different path in her career, is not just a working mother, but a woman who works unusual, grueling hours. She travels a lot. She wanted the kitchen to be a special place in her home, just as it was when she was a kid. But learning how to cook just didn't come naturally.
Gayle King: I'm just not a cook. A couple of times I have tried. Like I got the recipe from Oprah's chef Art Smith, who's a very good chef, because I thought, I'm going to make Kirby's birthday cake from scratch. I'm going to follow Art's recipe. I swear to you, I followed that recipe to a tee. And I was so proud of myself. I iced it myself. Da da da da da, happy birthday, Kirby. And she took her first bite, and she said "..." I could just tell by her face as she was swallowing. And I said, What? What is it, bear? Is it missing something? And I know she had that nanosecond where should she be honest or should she tell the truth? Kirby decided to tell the truth and said it's just missing flavor. Could I have some water?
Michele Norris: It's missing flavor?
Gayle King: And so, needless to say, then I went and bought a cake.
Michele Norris: So even though you don't cook or bake, I'm wondering if the kitchen was still a very special place in your home.
Gayle King: Well, I think everybody gathers in the kitchen. And I had the nerve when I was looking at houses to say, I want a big kitchen because I knew that it would be a gathering place. I knew that I wanted all the bells and whistles in the kitchen that I would never use. I knew that I wanted a big table. I knew that I wanted it to be very welcoming, you know, even though they had a desk in their rooms, that's where kids did their homework. The TV was there in the kitchen. I mean, not to mention eating in the kitchen. When I moved into my apartment here in New York City to show you how I don't cook, I decided one day, you know, I'm going to let me use this oven. And I had made I don't even remember what it was. And I went to turn on the oven and it didn't come on. Well god, I mean, I have this thing all prepared. I went to preheat the thing and I called downstairs and I said, "You know, something's wrong with the oven." So the guy came up and he said, "Ms. King, it's not connected."
Michele Norris: Oven wasn't connected? Wasn't wasn't plugged in or gas wasn't connected to something?
Gayle King: It was gas. It wasn't connected. And he said, "How long have you lived?" I go, "Three months." So I mean, that's how long it took me to discover that.
Michele Norris: You hadn't even boiled water.
Gayle King: No.
Michele Norris: Okay, so you truly do not cook.
Gayle King: That's what I'm saying.
Michele Norris: Not at all.
Gayle King: No, I'm not making this up.
Michele Norris: Even though you don't cook, I thought you would be a great guest for the show. And I knew we would have a delicious conversation.
Gayle King: Well, that's why I tried to get out of it, because I'm not going to be good on your show.
Michele Norris: But I believe that the kitchen is the heartbeat of the household.
Gayle King: Well, that's true.
Michele Norris: And even if the cooking is not happening there, magic is still happening there. A lot of business happens in a kitchen where you talk about what happened at the end of the day. It's where you come together. Did you do that with your kids? Did they still have meals together?
Gayle King: Oh, yes, yes. Yes, definitely. And we always had a thing about because if you ask kids, how was your day, it's always fine. There's never any elaboration on that. When they were in junior high and high school, I drove them to school.
Michele Norris: Oh, because you get a lot of reconnaissance when you're in the car.
Gayle King: You do. I love being able to drive them to school, but at the end of the day, I think the Obamas called it Rose and Thorns, I called it. What was the best part of your day? What was the worst part of your day?
Michele Norris: Mmhmm.
Gayle King: And that's always a good jumping-off point to have a conversation because you can elaborate. Well, why was that the best part? Why was that the worst part? And I always did enjoy that. Always.
Michele Norris: Did your parents do that with you?
Gayle King: No. I don't even know where I heard that.
Michele Norris: My dad did that.
Gayle King: He did?
Michele Norris: Yeah. He would ask, "What did you learn today?"
Gayle King: Yeah.
Michele Norris: And we had to have an answer, like you couldn't say nothing.
Gayle King: "What did you learn?", it was always. But that's a good question, though. What did you learn today? That's good. So your dad did that?
Michele Norris: Yeah, every day. What did you learn today?
Gayle King: Did you do that with your kids?
Michele Norris: A version of it.
Gayle King: What was your version?
Michele Norris: We would just talk. Broderick and I generally ate later, we would sit down and have meals with the kids because they had to go to bed and we were like getting home in time, you know, to basically eat with them. And then we together would have a meal.
Gayle King: Oh, you did? Oh wow.
Michele Norris: So we only had this like extended table time, but we really wanted to have the time together with the kids and we couldn't have them eating at 8:00. As a journalist, I was on deadline at 6:30 so. You know, I was on the air a lot...
Gayle King: I know. I know. But then you have to have two sets of seatings, don't you?
Michele Norris: You know, you clear the plates, you take them to bed and then you come down and then we'd have a meal together.
Gayle King: You did? Wow. I'm impressed.
Michele Norris: But coming together at the table was really and is still very important to us. They come over on Sundays and we all get together. I had an editor once, Gail, who said that when he interviewed people, he would always ask them about their family life and particularly their dining habits. And when I did the show, it came back to me because he believed that a lot of journalists develop their interviewing skills very early, either watching people talk at a table or figuring out how to get in a conversation or interrogating authority. So every so often I would apply that to journalists that I would meet. And I wondered if there was something in your career that blossomed from the conversations that you had as a family at that table, business that was done in your kitchen.
Gayle King: Not really nope. I mean, for me, I was always a very chatty kid. I was always very curious and very inquisitive. But I don't think that came from the table. I was just always that kind of kid. My mom always used to say that, that I always had 50 million questions about everything. And I never felt that I had to elbow my way into a conversation at the dinner table. What's interesting to me is that my dad was one of these people that when he spoke you listen, you know, if your mom said something, I'd go, "Well, why do we have to do that? Or I don't know..." If your dad said something that was it. And I can remember when I went to college and I came back and he said something and I said, "Well, I just don't think that's true." I don't remember what it was. I just disagree with that. I just don't think you're right. Now, he appeared to be very upset with me because I had never challenged him. Never. Never. You just didn't do that. My mother told me later that he got the biggest kick out of that.
Michele Norris: So when we first contacted you about this story, you said, I don't have any stories to tell.
Gayle King: I know, I was going to call you. That's what I said.
Michele Norris: And you were the only person that we've talked to so far who not only provided not just one recipe, but two recipes. But you went into a recipe file, and they're actually recipes that look like they're written in your mother's hand.
Gayle King: I called my sister Karen because I don't have them. And so Karen, when I was talking to her, she said, you know, "I actually have the recipe." I said, you do? She said, "Because" you know, she had written it down for me. Karen cooks. And when she sent me that, I went, oh my gosh. Because you can tell it's been used quite a few times.
Michele Norris: Tell me about the recipes that you provide.
Gayle King: Well, so.
Michele Norris: We're going to share them with our listeners. You can find them at our website.
Gayle King: Yeah, the macaroni and cheese. This is so funny. We had W. Kamau Bell on this morning. He was wearing a T-shirt, no joke, that said "All mac and cheese is not created equal."
Michele Norris: And he's right about that. There are no lies detect.
Gayle King: Yes exactly, but what's funny about this is Tony Dokoupil, who anchors with me, is white [and] goes, What does that shirt mean? And Nate and I went...
Michele Norris: So you had you had to take him to school?
Gayle King: Yes. So it was so because Nate and I started cracking up. And when he asked him, Kamau was like, oh, I mean, he didn't quite know how to answer it. But Nate and I fell out. So did other black people who were in the studio, because we all know what that means. Which leads me to like my mom's mac and cheese.
Michele Norris: Don't mess with the mac and cheese on Thanksgiving.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: Like you have a designated person that is trusted to bring the mac and cheese and you don't experiment.
Gayle King: Yes. You do not experiment. So Karen has a recipe. And I just remember it was cheesy, it was gooey. It had just the right amount of cheese to creamy consistency ratio. And I don't like the big thick noodles. The noodles have to be a certain size.
Michele Norris: Little elbow noodles.
Gayle King: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I see some people do mac and cheese, Michele, with rigatoni!
Michele Norris: No, that's not mac and cheese.
Gayle King: That's blasphemy! Or they use a different kind of cheese! So the mac and cheese is stellar. A-plus plus. Plus. The other thing that I really like, this was a Thanksgiving staple. It's a Jell-O mold. And it sounds... Jell-O mold that doesn't sound hard...
Michele Norris: No, but Jell-O molds were a thing.
Gayle King: They were a big thing.
Michele Norris: They were a big thing.
Gayle King: So it's the Jell-O mold. With the Jell-O, she would put cranberry in it because you got to have cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving. I don't know if that was my mom's recipe or her mother's recipe, but that's something that any of us, when we make Thanksgiving, we all have that.
Michele Norris: I'm calling up the recipe.
Gayle King: Okay, good.
Michele Norris: This is, I have a picture of it.
Gayle King: Okay.
Michele Norris: It is a well loved, well-used card.
Gayle King: Yes, yeah.
Michele Norris: It looks like a three-by-five recipe card.
Gayle King: I do think that's funny that she had that. Yeah.
Michele Norris: And it's got stains. And all kinds of things.
Gayle King: It's brown and curled up. I think half the card is missing. Yeah.
Michele Norris: There is a little tear on the card and you have to kind of figure some stuff out because it says big frozen strawberries.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: So I assume that's a big bag of frozen strawberries.
Gayle King: Yeah, big bag, yes.
Michele Norris: Big strawberry Jell-O.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: Like, I guess one of the big box. The big box of Jell-O. One cranberry sauce. I assume that's a can of cranberry sauce.
Gayle King: Remember, it comes out rolled, you know, where you just open? You let it slide out?
Michele Norris: Oh, yes. The one that kind of makes a noise (shloup).
Gayle King: Yes. Yeah. Not the little berries. It has to be that gelatin. Yes, yes, yes.
Michele Norris: Gelatinous kind of tube that comes out.
Gayle King: That is it.
Michele Norris: And then one or two apples. She doesn't designate red or green. So I guess that's up to the person.
Gayle King: Red.
Michele Norris: Red. Okay. Two cups, boiling water. Stir.
Gayle King: I can do that. Uh huh.
Michele Norris: Add cranberry sauce.
Gayle King: Because the cranberry melts in the boiling water.
Michele Norris: Okay, and then add the strawberries, which are frozen. And I guess they all combine.
Gayle King: Yes.
Michele Norris: And the apples pour in the mold and somehow the Jell-O gets in there. She knows it's noted here, but she knows when to put it in. And then up in the corner, it says crushed pineapple, which is written in a different look at a different time, it looks like with the pen so she must at some point [have] improvised.
Gayle King: Added that later, because in the beginning that wasn't there.
Michele Norris: Okay. So that she leveled up. At some point it added some crushed pineapple. Have you ever made this dish?
Gayle King: No.
Michele Norris: When did your mom serve the strawberry Jell-O mold?
Gayle King: Oh, all at the same time.
Michele Norris: Was that a special treat for a holiday?
Gayle King: It was only Thanksgiving, you know, and Thanksgiving dinner. We had a lot of Thanksgiving. The mac and cheese, the dressing, the something green, the rolls, ham. I mean, you name it, we had it. It was always a big, big spread Thanksgiving. But that's what made it so special because we only got it that one day of the year. Macaroni and cheese, you could have it other places.
Michele Norris: What kind of mold did your mom use?
Gayle King: The kind it was either round with a circle in the middle metal. Definitely metal. And it wasn't the fancy-dancy one, you know, where they had the ridges. It was just a simple round mole with a simple hole in the. Middle and you put it in hot water to release it.
Michele Norris: To release the Jell-O from the mold.
Gayle King: Yes. So that when you turn it over, Michele, it falls out very in that ring and it doesn't come out gloppy at a time. We would set it in the hot water. Funny, I do remember this. Put it in there and then flip it over. And it was just a perfect circle.
Michele Norris: And it kind of jiggled.
Gayle King: Yeah.
Michele Norris: Kind of did a little shake when it was on a plate.
Gayle King: Shimmy on the plate. Yes, we loved that.
Michele Norris: I have loved talking to you.
Gayle King: Oh, thanks. Michele, thank you for having me.
Michele Norris: Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your wisdom and your recipes.
Gayle King: Yeah. Is that what they're called? You know, once I was asked to participate in a when I was anchoring the news in Hartford, Connecticut, and they were asking to submit something, you cook. And so you know what? I gave them a Morton's honey button where I said, Go to the store, buy the Morton's honey bun, put said honey bun on a plate, microwave it for 8 to 10 seconds, bring it to your table, serve while hot. Fork optional. That was my recipe. And they thought I was kidding, and I wasn't.
Michele Norris: That actually sounds delicious.
Gayle King: It's good.
Michele Norris: Alright. I love talking to you again.
Gayle King: Thank you, Michele. Thank you for having me.
Michele Norris: I had a great time with Gayle and I am going to tease her forevermore for claiming that she, of all people, didn't have stories to tell. She reminds us that even if you don't spend hours at the stove or bust pots and pans on the kitchen, you can still serve up great memories there. There's no shame in takeout or frozen food or meal services or the generosity of friends or whatever you do to keep yourself fed and keep yourself healthy. On paper, Gayle grew up to become a very different person from her mother, choosing to go down a big career path that skyrocketed her to national fame. But she kept what she cherished most from her relationship with her parents, and that was carving out time in her busy life to keep a close relationship with her kids.
And speaking of Jell-O, you can find Peggy King’s handwritten recipes for her Thanksgiving Cranberry Jell-O mold and her killer mac and cheese at our website, yourmamaskitchen.com. And if you find me on Instagram, I will share it there too. If you make either of these dishes give us a shout and make sure to post the results on Instagram or TikTok. And while you are there, you can also share your own techniques, shortcuts, or must-have ingredients for serving up a perfect pan of mac and cheese.
Special thanks this week to Threshold Studios in New York City.
Thank you so much for joining me today on Your Mama’s Kitchen. I’m Michele Norris. See you next week.
This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original, produced by Higher Ground Studios. Producers for Your Mama's Kitchen are Natalie Rinn and Sonia Htoon. Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryo Baum. Production support from Angel Carreras and Julia Murray. Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistants are Jenna Levin and Camilla Ther de Koos. Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and Michele Norris. Executive producers for Audible are Zola Mashariki, Nick D'Angelo and Ann Hepperman. The show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Special thanks to Joe Paulsen, Melissa Baer and Angela Peluso. Head of Audible Studios, Zola Mashariki. Chief Content Officer, Rachel Ghiazza. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound Recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio LLC.
