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Katie O'Connor: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O'Connor, and today I'm so excited to be speaking with Taylor Jenkins Reid, bestselling author of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, Daisy Jones & The Six, Malibu Rising, and more. Her latest novel, Carrie Soto Is Back, tells the story of a 37-year-old former tennis phenom who decides to come out of retirement to reclaim her grand slam record. Welcome, Taylor.
Taylor Jenkins Reid: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
KO: So, you've said that you had the most fun writing this book. And frankly, I had a lot of fun listening to it. Can you describe what it was about this story that made it such a joyful experience for you to create?
TJR: I think one of the things about this book that is a little bit different than what I've done before is that it has a really definitive question: Can Carrie defend her grand slam singles-title record or not? And I found that really fun to tackle because it had less of an open ending, it had more of a black-and-white approach, and it meant that I could look at this grand slam season and I could orchestrate a career turn for her that thrilled me and kept me on the edge of my seat, in the hopes that it would do that for the listener.
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KO: Speaking of edge of your seat, there are many on-court scenes throughout Carrie Soto Is Back at all of the major grand slam tournaments, and I just want to know what type of research you did to create such a tangible and adrenaline-inducing atmosphere within the novel.
TJR: I watched a lot of Friday Night Lights [laughs].
KO: [Laughs]
TJR: I think that I wanted to see how the great Jason Katims could manage to pull it off. Because, to be honest, I think Friday Night Lights was kind of the perfect comp, because I've never cared about football and I loved that show. And I don't want people to have to care about tennis to love this book. I don't want to write this book for tennis lovers only. I want to write it for everybody. So, I did a lot of research, but I always tried to keep in mind that I, myself, am an amateur tennis lover. I'm new to this, I'm learning about it, and I wanted to keep that sense of excitement that this is a new world, not something that you have to know intimately in order to understand. And I just kept thinking, “Okay, what is the least amount of information you need about the details—which shot it is, where the ball's going—that still makes you feel like you're desperate to know where the ball lands and whether Carrie can do it?” And I really fine-tuned that balance.
KO: Yeah. It is a fine line, but I think you walked it beautifully. You really got us listeners right in the game with her, and really in Carrie's head throughout all of this. And I loved Carrie. You have said that you do too, but you're not sure if everyone will. Carrie's brashness isn't loved by many in the tennis world. There's a line about her telling her opponents that they should get better if they want to beat her. And even her father, Javier, at times is concerned with her singular focus on her passion. Did you find it freeing to write her? Or did you relate to that side of her personality?
TJR: I found it so freeing. Oh, it was delicious to get to write a woman who takes for granted that everyone knows how good she is and doesn't feel the need to soften or pretend that she doesn't know how good she is. I feel like, as women, so often, we are allowed to succeed as long as we do a number of things, and a lot of those things are undercutting our own success. You can be successful, but just don't act like you know it. You can be successful, but look like it's an accident. You can be successful, but really you need to thank the people who supported you this whole time and make it seem like you believe they are the reason you're here. There are so many rules, and it was so fun to write Carrie, because she doesn't care about any of them. And it meant almost everything that she said was something that I have not heard a woman in her position say before. And that's always a fun space to write in, when it's something so simple and yet almost never happens.
"It was delicious to get to write a woman who takes for granted that everyone knows how good she is and doesn't feel the need to soften or pretend that she doesn't know how good she is."
KO: Yeah. I really had an appreciation for the things that I was thinking that then came out of Carrie's mouth, right?
TJR: [Laughs]
KO: You know, it's that type of thing where, “Oh, can't say that in polite society,” but there's Carrie sort of owning her voice in those moments. But you've touched on something here, which is this book really serves as commentary on sexism in sports, racism in sports, and also mental health in sports.
TJR: Mm-hmm.
KO: The press doesn't treat Carrie kindly at the height of her career, but especially in the early days of her comeback. They say things like, “Do we want her back? I hope she does the elegant thing after the Australian Open and bow out.” Then, of course, there's the infamous hot mic moment when a broadcaster calls her a bitch and the nickname sticks.
So, a lot of ground has been made around protections for athletes and their mental health, in large part due to the athletes themselves, like Simone Biles, like Michael Phelps, and, of course, tennis player Naomi Osaka, who infamously refused to do press after her matches last year at the French Open, and then was subsequently fined. Can you talk about this collective ownership that fans and sportscasters alike feel over athletes and the idea, as you state in your book, that an athlete is someone we should cheer for?
TJR: Yeah. I think what's really tough about being a person in the public eye, whether you're an athlete or a singer or an actress or a model or anything, is that as human beings, I think we start to love something so much that we can't any longer see them as their own subject, they're only the object of our love. So, loving a band, loving a sports star, feels really good. You see them and you're like, “Oh, man, I love them. They're so cool. I love what they do, I love what they stand for.” It's a feeling that they give you, and you expect that feeling from them. You want that feeling from them more than you want what is best for them. And I think we have a really hard time holding space for loving something in a way that feels good to us, and also letting that thing be what it is without an expectation from us.
What's so exciting about somebody like Naomi Osaka or Simone Biles is they're standing up for their mental health, they're standing up for what they need despite the cost. Because it would be really easy if Naomi Osaka said, “Hey, I'm not gonna do this press anymore. You know, speaking to the press after a match is not good for me, I'm not gonna do it.” And then the French Open said, “Good point. We're not gonna make you do it.” And that's not what happened, right? Naomi Osaka said, “I'm not gonna do it,” and then she was fined. And she is struggling and openly talking about this. It's not easy. So, what makes Naomi Osaka and Simone Biles so exciting is that they're doing it even though they understand that there will be consequences for it. They're fighting against those consequences.
And I admire it so much, because I really do believe that if enough athletes do that, things will change. But they don't change just because one brave person said something. And so that's the point we're in right now, where it just feels so unjust to me to have these young women stand up for what they need and not be met with, “Okay, we're listening.” But I hope that this is the beginning of a process that they have started.
KO: Yeah. Hopefully these examples can encourage others that are struggling in the same way to take those same stands. But it is hard, right? Because these are two champions, two former best-ofs in their sport. And so, in some ways, it's easier to do it when you're at the top because you're at the top.
TJR: Well, that's exactly it. And we need people at the top to do it so that people at all levels of the game can do it. You know, we needed Billie Jean King to do what she did, and it had to be someone like her who was going to change things. You need power to change the system.
KO: Mm-hmm.
TJR: And that's what I find, again, so exciting about some of these young women, is they have amassed this power, they have amassed it young, and they're not just going to use it for themselves. They're going to use their power to try to change the entire system. And that is a system that Carrie, during her period of time, can't really do much about, and instead just rejects and, again, pays the consequences. We talk about—Carrie says a lot of things that other women wouldn't say. Carrie's also very lonely.
KO: Mm-hmm.
TJR: Carrie pays a very big price for the way that she behaves. Carrie does not do what society wants from her, and yes, that is brave, but it is also with very significant consequence, which is why when we meet her at the top of the book, this is not a happy retirement.
KO: And when we meet her, she is sitting alongside her father, Javier Soto, a former tennis player himself and Carrie's coach both at the beginning of her career and during her comeback. And as you said, Carrie is lonely, but this relationship right here is the biggest one in her life. And it is so central to the narrative. What was your inspiration for their relationship?
TJR: I really wanted to write a story, I think, about fathers and daughters. It's been so gratifying to watch my daughter grow up and form this incredible relationship with her father that is different than the one that she has with me. And I think part of me wanted to honor that. I think part of me wanted to honor the fact that there are a lot of fathers who coach their children, and it is a complicated relationship and one that needs a very fine-tuned balance and can go off the rails at times. And we've seen stories of fathers who are just brutal coaches. I was less interested in conveying that and more interested in exploring a parent-child relationship when the parent is okay reflecting on the mistakes that they've made and owning up to them and allowing for some reconciliation.
"We have a really hard time holding space for loving something in a way that feels good to us, and also letting that thing be what it is without an expectation from us."
Javier and Carrie were just a real pleasure to write. They have a really special relationship, and in some ways, Javier, it's a little bit like he made the monster so he's the only one who knows how to get through to her. And that was just a really fun space to write for the two of them.
KO: I really loved their dynamic, and I think their dynamic is also beautifully brought to life by Stacy Gonzalez, who plays Carrie on the audiobook. And her performance of Javier, and weaving the Spanish that you included in the dialogue so effortlessly, is just almost musical when you're hearing it.
So, Javier is Argentinian, and as a non-Hispanic author, can you talk to me about your process to ensure that the story you were telling of these main characters was both respectful and authentic to their heritage?
TJR: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you the number-one thing is that you need to know that you don't know. And I think I was really fortunate in that my Spanish language editor, Leo [Leonel Teti], helped me. He helped me with the Spanish, he helped me with the particular small cultural differences that would come up. I had an incredible resource in him, and I don't know that I would have made Javier from Argentina without the affection that I have for Leo, and the fact that he's from Argentina. So, I was very fortunate about that.
I also have a lot of people in my life who are from different countries. And look, I could continue to write white people as the center of my stories. I can center white people for the rest of my life. That's very easy for me to do. I'm a white person, it's what I know best, it would certainly be easier. I just don't want to relegate women of color to the outer rings of a story. I don't want it to be that the closest a woman of color can get to the center of a story I tell is the best friend. It just doesn't sit right with me. I also think I have to work very, very hard to make sure that my representation is not harmful. So, I think of it on every single level. I consult people who I trust, and here's the biggest thing: I have to be open to getting it wrong. If I've learned anything, it's that you have to try, but also be open to hearing that you made a mistake. And so that's the space that I'm in. I'm trying to do the right thing. Intention does not equal impact. I'm open to hearing if it was the wrong thing. I know there's no definitive answer to any of this, but I think if I continue to only write white women, it just doesn't feel inclusive to me.
KO: Yeah. And that “intention doesn't equal impact,” I feel like that could have been said by Javier himself, that feels like [laughs]—
TJR: [Laughs] That's exactly right.
KO: That’s some Soto wisdom right there.
TJR: That is very, very true. I think there are a lot of things that Javier intends in a much different way than they end up impacting Carrie. I think you're exactly right.
KO: Very much so. But that's often true of father-daughter relationships.
TJR: Yeah.
KO: Let alone him being her coach.
TJR: Yeah.
KO: Listening to this audiobook is such an elevated experience. It's a spectacular full cast helmed by Stacy Gonzalez, as I mentioned, but you've also got newspaper clippings and press releases and sports shows that have the music going. But then also performances from Mary Carillo and Patrick McEnroe as sportscasters. I just, as a tennis fan, that was so magical. And I'm just curious, because your audiobooks are so special, are you thinking about the audio while you're writing the story?
"I don't want it to be that the closest a woman of color can get to the center of a story I tell is the best friend. It just doesn't sit right with me."
TJR: I'm never thinking about anything except the words when I'm writing a story. But I will tell you that when I get to the end of the book and it comes time to have this question about audio, that is a period of the project that I take incredibly seriously. And I don't want to just do what is assumed the easiest thing to do is. So, for me, it's a full conversation with many members of my team: “What is the way to make the audio its own dynamic and interesting piece of storytelling?” It's not just a recorded book. It is a different medium for this story that is presented to you as if it was being performed just for you. That is a real passion that I have, and I've been incredibly fortunate to be able to work with such fantastic people to put something like this together.
KO: Are you an audiobook listener yourself?
TJR: Yes. I love books in all forms, and there, first of all, there are some books that are just better in audio. You can read Lincoln in the Bardo, but you should listen to Lincoln in the Bardo. But also, I love listening to books while I am doing other things, whether I'm driving in the car or I'm going on a walk or I'm doing the laundry. I love to do that. So I listen to audiobooks just as much as I read physical books.
KO: So, Carrie Soto Is Back debuts right after the start of the US Open. It's the last tournament in Carrie's comeback tour. And Serena Williams has recently announced that this US Open will be her last tournament. I saw many parallels between Serena and Carrie while I was listening, the most obvious being the 20-plus grand slams to their name and their fathers that doubled as coaches. And I have two questions for you here: Did Serena serve as an inspiration for you in creating Carrie? And how do you think Carrie would react to news of Serena's retirement, or "evolution," I should say, to use Serena's word?
TJR: That's right. That's a really good question. I will start with: There's no Carrie Soto without Serena Williams. And I mean that in a number of ways, but the biggest one being—look, ultimately, I'm not a sports person, you know? What I am interested in is cultural narratives, and Serena's story of just incredible, incredible talent. And the way that tennis, for a very long time, was resistant to admitting the talent of Venus and Serena Williams is something that has really stuck with me. The Williams sisters were so good that no one could deny them. And I love that tenacity, and I wanted to give Carrie a little bit of that.
That being said, Serena Williams is very, very good at telling her own story. And I have no interest in cribbing her story. I wanted to tell a story that was different and that honored her. So one of the things that was very important to me is that, you know, Serena Williams has 23 slam titles. No one in the book accomplishes 23. I will not touch that record even in my very small fictional world. And we should assume that—you know, the book ends basically in 1996, at the very, very end—we should presume that shortly after that, the Williams sisters make their debut and put Carrie and Nicki firmly in the past. And the future of women's tennis, even within Carrie Soto Is Back, is the Williams sisters.
It's hard for me to say what Carrie would say about Serena, because Serena's much more evolved [laughs] than Carrie. But I will say this, I think that the complexity with which Serena is approaching her evolution, being honest about all of the feelings that she has about it—and I encourage anyone who has not read her Vogue piece to really sit down and read it, because it's not just about Serena's evolution away from tennis, it's also a beautifully rendered set of ideas about what it means to be a female athlete. That piece is spectacular. And I think Serena is much, much more evolved about any of that than Carrie might ever be. And I just continue to admire Serena Williams at every turn.
KO: I want to say congratulations, you've had a lot of exciting adaptation news about your novels, but happening most imminently is the Prime Video miniseries based on Daisy Jones & The Six, which wrapped filming in the spring. Can you share with our listeners a bit about this experience of seeing your work come to life in this way?
TJR: It is absolutely the trippiest experience of my life. I think anytime you have a book adapted to the screen, there's a little bit of surrealness to it. But it being a band, I think, has elevated it to a level of craziness that sometimes my brain was going, “What am I seeing in front of me?” In this really, just, delicious way. I made up a fake band, I called them Daisy Jones & The Six. I made up a bunch of songs. I made up all this fake stuff, and now suddenly I'm standing in a room and they're performing a song in front of me, and they're introducing themselves and they're going, “Daisy Jones, everybody,” and, you know, “Billy Dunne, everybody.” And it was just very weird and phenomenal and so much fun.
"There's no Carrie Soto without Serena Williams."
I think if the band had been bad or mediocre, or the actors only okay, or the chemistry fine, maybe there'd be some complexity to the feeling. This band is so good. They are so good. Every single one of them is an actor who has made themselves into a musician. Or maybe they were an actor and a musician before, but they are very, very much both. They are not an actor pretending, they are these people. And the chemistry is incredible. So, I get to look at this band, and the thought that I might have had a little something to do with it brings me so much pride, because they are now their own thing, and they are a band and they're so cool and their songs are so good. And the thought that like, “Oh, maybe I was a part of that”—the best feeling.
KO: Gosh, I'm even more excited now. I can't wait. I think maybe we'll have to have a little Audible viewing party just to really nerd out over it. So, you are blowing up on BookTok, as the kids say. What's it like to connect with your fans in this way and, in particular, to see your backlist just embraced by a new audience?
TJR: It's incredible. I'm so grateful for it. And I think TikTok has really blown up so that it's not just young kids, right? It's a lot of people on TikTok, of all generations. But there are a lot of teenage girls on TikTok. And so, for me, what's been thrilling is the opportunity to get to be somewhat in conversation with young girls. Young girls are the future. They're gonna change the world. And I mean that both philosophically, which is to say it is always the younger generation that goes on to change the world in some ways, but also very, very specifically, that gen Z, I believe in very strongly. And I believe that they're going to change the world for the better.
So, the thought that these young women that I admire so much, they think there might be something within my work to connect to, it feels like an immense, immense honor. And I don't take that honor lightly. I very much hope that if there are young women that come to Carrie Soto Is Back, that it offers up an opportunity to have a conversation about the way society is going to try to tell them they should be, and whether they feel up for rejecting that.
KO: I love it. I love taking that responsibility in your hands, and seeing what you can do through your work. That's great.
TJR: Yeah.
KO: So, Evelyn Hugo gives us so much of the '50s and '60s. Daisy Jones has us rooted in the '70s. Malibu Rising in the '80s, and now Carrie Soto takes place largely in the '90s. You're really taking us through the decades here. Can we expect something from you set in the early 2000s coming up?
TJR: Absolutely not [laughs]. I am not going near the internet, guys. I'm not gonna do it. What's very exciting to me about releasing Carrie Soto is that these four famous women feel very much like a set. This is the end. Carrie Soto is the end of this universe. And it is time for me to go and find something else to write about. And I really hope that the way that the world works, I have an opportunity to write about fame again, because I think I will have more to say. I think it's really fun. And I can't bear to think that this is totally behind me, but it is behind me for now. This quartet is the story. These four women are what I have to say, and it's time for me to go find another world and another space to explore.
KO: So, what is next for you?
TJR: Will you tell me? I would love that.
KO: [Laughs] I mean, I have some ideas.
TJR: [Laughs]
KO: Well, because I was going to ask you, you know, we are all such fans of your Easter eggs. And you know, great seeing a little bit of Nina Riva in Carrie Soto, and I also loved the moment where she was reading an unauthorized biography of Daisy Jones. So, I was listening sort of with a fine ear to see, “Oh, is there maybe someone being mentioned in here that we might see in a future Taylor Jenkins Reid book?” But it sounds like maybe not.
TJR: Not for now. I reserve the right to come back and write about Nicki Chan whenever I want because, boy, is she fun. But not for now. I think the answer is, I am going to retreat to my cave and find a new world, and I hope [when] I come out of my cave I have something very shiny and new and an unexpected direction to show everybody.
KO: Well, when you do, we will all be here ready to listen.
TJR: Well, thank you, I really appreciate that. I'm gonna hold you to it.
KO: No problem here [laughs]. Thank you so much for your time today.
TJR: Oh, thank you. This has been so much fun.
KO: Listeners, you can get Carrie Soto Is Back on Audible.
