How Stephanie Garber surprised even herself with her series conclusion

Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.

Katie O’Connor: Hi, Listeners. I'm Audible editor Katie O’Connor. And today, I'm excited to be speaking with bestselling author Stephanie Garber about the conclusion of her Once Upon a Broken Heart series, which follows our main character, Evangeline Fox, on her journey to find true love and the devastating costs of a happily ever after. Welcome, Stephanie.

Stephanie Garber: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

KO: I am very excited to talk, because, just first of all, (laughs) no book has quite destroyed me like book two in this series, The Ballad of Never After. I have been desperate, as have all of your fans really, for book three, A Curse for True Love. And I'm just curious what it has been like dealing with that fever pitch of emotions from your readers and listeners while we've been waiting for the conclusion of the series.

SG: I feel so bad, because I feel I should be like, "I'm sorry."

KO: (laughs)

SG: But I'm not. (laughs)

KO: You shouldn't be. It was so cleverly done ... It was just so smart too. I just felt like I wanted to talk to everybody about how smart that ending was, that journey that you took us on.

SG: Oh, I'm so glad. Well, it's funny, because I knew it was a cliffhanger. I did not expect the reaction, in part because I felt like I was telling everyone ahead of time, like in the book when Jacks is like, "Ballads don't end happily." And I don't know if I'm okay to spoil things that happen in Ballad or not.

*Warning: Spoilers ahead for The Ballad of Never After*

KO: Listeners, this is a little spoiler warning if you haven't listened to book two yet.

SG: Yes. I won't spoil anything in book three. But for book two, I feel like it's more fun if I can spoil it. But yeah, I felt like I tried to warn everyone like, “Hey, her memories aren't going to be here at the end.” There are a lot of references. (laughs) I think after the book came out, it was like a solid 48 hours of people being like, "How could you? I thought you were a nice person." Like, "You've devastated me. Oh my gosh." Like, really upset. But then there'd be these sweet little "PS, I love you." (laughs)

KO: (laughs)

SG: And so... I was like, "This is why fantasy readers are the best." I feel bad for saying this, because I don't actually like to hurt people, but it was really neat seeing people be so emotionally invested. Like, I don't know that I've ever had quite a reaction to a book like this, and so I was really happy because it was an emotional ending for me to write. So I was glad it hit people.

KO: It hit. (laughs) It hit hard. So, in A Curse for True Love, for the first time you introduce two new points of view. You write both Jacks's and Apollo's points of view in addition to Evangeline's. Talk me through that process of introducing their voices. Did the characters guide you there? Did you always know that you wanted to throw in, if not both voices, at least one?

SG: Yeah, that's a good question. Honestly, before this book I'd always been hesitant to write a male POV. Like, it always made me really nervous, but then I kind of knew early on I needed to include Apollo, because Evangeline doesn't really know what's going on … I try to write books that are, hopefully, easy for readers to get into, and so, I try to include enough recapping that it's like, "Here. We're going to orient you." But Evangeline couldn't do that.

KO: Right.

SG: And I also just had a lot of fun writing Apollo. I felt like he had a bigger arc in this book, and so I really thought it was fun to get in his head. And I feel like there were questions that I knew readers had that I wanted to answer—that I felt I owed them. And it couldn't be done another way, because I feel like it just wasn't going to make sense for him to confess certain things to Evangeline. Or do any of these things.

I didn't know how much it would be, but it kind of was a natural progression, like, "This is where his chapter goes." And then with Jacks, I was really hesitant. I was so nervous, because I felt like, "Oh my gosh." I knew a lot of readers wanted this, and I like to give readers what they want, but I was also like, "I don't want to screw this up." Because I feel like it'd be better not to have it than to do it badly. So, I kind of tested it out and did a little Jacks, and then my editors were like, "More. We want more. Give us more … Tell us more of what he's thinking and what he's doing." And I feel like as soon as they gave me permission and were kind of like, "We want more,” it was a lot more fun to me to kind of be just like, "Okay. I'm just going to lean in here."

KO: Yeah.

SG: I'm going to lean in here. And so, once I took the plunge, I had a lot of fun with it, and I just felt like there were just kind of natural spots for Jacks and Apollo. Like, I didn't really overthink it. You know, there's not a rhythm, like back and forth. I would just kind of be like, "This is where I think it'd be nice to see what they're doing."

KO: Yeah. I think fans will really enjoy getting to go into their minds for a little bit too. I just think that it paints sort of this fuller picture. And to your point, right, Evangeline is pretty much back at square one when we start this book. So you do need Apollo's voice in there. And just to get sort of more of the emotions from Jacks, too, as he's really turned his world upside down to help her in this moment. But again, I don't want to spoil too much there. (laughs)

SG: No. But I am excited, because I have yet to listen to the audiobook. And I know we have a new narrator. And he’s doing Jacks and Apollo. And so, I'm personally really excited to hear it. Even though I wrote it, I'm like, "I can't wait to hear somebody do this."

KO: To listen to it. Yes.

SG: Yeah.

KO: Rebecca Soler has narrated all of your audiobooks. Can you just tell our listeners a little bit about your relationship with her?

SG: I love Rebecca. So when I wrote my first book, Caraval—my books are published by Macmillan—Macmillan Audio suggested Rebecca, because she does books like the Lunar Chronicles. And she's just tremendous. She's a really great voice actress. And as soon as I heard her, I loved her. But then she also has reached out to me with books and will be like, "Is there anything you can tell me about these characters? Anything you can tell me about future books to kind of inform my performance and how I do these characters?" And so, I feel like she's really great at what she does. She's a really talented voice actress, but I love how she puts so much into it. I'm really thankful she does my audiobooks, because it means she's one of my first readers. And she always sends me the sweetest messages when she finishes reading.

KO: That's so special.

SG: It is, it is. So I just adore her, and I love listening to her performances.

KO: That's interesting. I love that she's asking for notes, too, and sort of background on future books as well, because it's one of the things that I was curious about. These books are filled with legends and fairy tales, and one of the central sort of ancient stories is “The Ballad of the Archer and the Fox,” which, in book two, we learn is actually about Jacks. And so I was curious, was this subplot in your mind when you were working on the Caraval series, or was this layered in with this new series?

SG: It was layered in with this new series. So, there are certain things that I try not to figure out too much of as I'm writing, unless I'm writing it. Like, I try not to go too far beyond what's on the page.

"Before I wrote this series, I really wanted to write what I called murdery Cinderella."

KO: Yeah.

SG: And so, when I was writing the Caraval series—for those of you who haven't read it, Jacks is a villain in the Caraval series. He appears in Legendary, and he was one of my favorite characters to write. And so I knew, when I finished that series, I wanted a spin-off with him. But I didn't actually know how it was going to go, because I was like, "I just want more of him." So I really didn't have a plot for it, but then as I started writing this, “The Ballad of the Archer and the Fox” just came as this very natural fairy tale.

And then as I started working more and more, it just kind of all … It's going to sound so weird, but I feel like sometimes our subconscious is doing things. So I feel like sometimes as I write, I'll be writing things on paper and then trying to figure it out. And it's like, "Oh, all the pieces are already here." Like, everything kind of lines up really neatly, and this all makes sense and fits in. So I didn't necessarily plan it while I was writing Caraval, but it just all happened to kind of fit together. I feel like it did, anyways.

KO: Yeah, beautifully. Was there an originating fairy tale that you were starting with when you started working on this series?

SG: Yes. Before I wrote this series, I really wanted to write what I called murdery Cinderella.

KO: Ooh.

SG: Yeah. I was obsessed with this idea, and I was like, "Okay. What if it's a Cinderella story and she goes to the ball, marries the prince, and then he gets killed on the wedding night, and she's framed for the murder? And then to clear her name, she has to team up with a hot guy, who may or may not be the murderer?" And so, that was what I wanted to write.

KO: Done.

SG: Yeah. But I didn't know how to write it for a long time, because I felt like, "Okay, I kind of need more than just, like, Cinderella plus murder." And as soon as I was like, "Oh, well, what if this is the Jacks book?"

And then it also had a little piece planted of a girl who'd been turned to stone in Finale, and I kind of wanted to tell her story. So I was like, "If I combine all three, I get Murder Cinderella."

KO: Do you have a piece of yarn and little tacks set up in your home office? (laughs) I'm like, "How are you keeping track of everything?" This is how I picture you, just sort of being like, “If I take this piece over here … Pull my string here." (laughs)

SG: (laughs) I don't have yarn, but I do end up with a lot of index cards.

KO: (laughs)

SG: Periodically, when I'm trying to figure out a book, people come over, and I'll have to ... It's embarrassing, because it's all just, like, index cards, colored index cards, all over. And I'll move them around and be like, "This and this and this." So I am kind of visual, but not quite with the yarn. But it’s kind of bad sometimes.

KO: You do have your visual cues, though. That's good to know. You need them, right?

SG: Yes.

KO: So one of the taglines for A Curse for True Love is, “Which villain will win?” And I'm just wanting to know what appeals to you about writing villains versus sort of a more traditional hero.

SG: That is a great question that I've asked myself a lot. I was thinking about this a lot, “Why do I love characters that are so morally gray or even kind of beyond that?" I think for me, a lot of times, there's a lot of gray area out there. I feel like there are so many things that you can look up just for different perspectives, and so I feel like I love getting inside of a character's head who sees something from a completely different perspective, particularly when it's kind of warped.

I feel like they make interesting characters because they make interesting choices. And I think the other thing is I'm really not good at writing traditional romance. I feel like whenever I'm writing a romance, I'm like, "How can I … I want to make it like a fight scene." Like-

KO: More murdery. (laughs)

SG: Yeah. I like the tension. I like the push and pull. I like the girl wanting the guy who's really genuinely a bad idea, not just kind of bad. So I feel like it makes it more fun for me, because it makes it more like, "I don't know if this is going to happen." I love reading the books where I'm like, "It seems impossible for characters to get together."

So, I think I really love the villain romance. I also just love writing characters who are willing to do anything and everything to get what they want, because I feel like it makes for surprising storylines. And I love surprises.

KO: Mm-hmm. These books are filled with surprises. (laughs) So it's safe to say that your listeners love them too.

I love the storytelling curse in this series. You've really taught us that we can't necessarily trust the endings of stories, and we may never know the true ending. Did the ending of the Once Upon a Broken Heart series change over time for you as you were writing it, or did you always sort of know what you wanted the ending to be?

SG: Okay, I probably shouldn't confess this, but I'm going to. So I had no idea what was going to happen in the third book when I finished the second book.

KO: Ooh.

"I had no idea what was going to happen in the third book when I finished the second book."

SG: Like, I knew how the second book needed to end, that ending was what I was writing towards when I was writing Once Upon a Broken Heart. When I was writing Ballad, I knew this was that point, but then I didn't know what happened after it. I just was like, "This resets the chessboard. This knocks everything over, changes it up, and then I have to kind of ..." In my approach, it was kind of like, "I'm going to have every character fight as hard as they can to get what they want."

And so, I didn't know until I started writing the book how it was going to end. The very, very end of the book—like, the last couple chapters—that didn't change. However, there was a part before—the last half of the book—that changed. I was going in a completely different direction, and I got really stuck in January of this year.

KO: Oh, wow.

SG: Yeah. And I talked to my critique partner, and she's like, "I don't think this is the right choice," because she knew what I was trying to do. And she's like, "I don't think this really does what you're trying to do." So, we reworked it together, and I rewrote it and went in a different direction. But the end end, that thing that happens at the end, that was there from pretty early on.

KO: Yeah. Can we as listeners of this series trust the ending?

SG: Oh. That's a good question. Well, I mean, I tend to tell people, "You cannot trust anything I write in my books."

KO: (laughs)

SG: I'm always just like, "You guys can't trust any of these characters, and you really shouldn't trust me, as well-meaning as I am."

KO: That might be answer enough right there. I'm going to hold on to that, maybe.

SG: Well, did you know that there are like three alternate epilogues?

KO: No.

SG: So, okay, I need to preface by saying this is not canon because I don't write bonus material that's canon. I don't think it's fair. If I thought it belonged in the book, I would put it in the book, and I wouldn't save it for bonus material. But sometimes, I have to write bonus material. Have you ever seen the movie Clue?

KO: Yes.

SG: With Tim Curry? Okay. I always loved how that ends, you know, where they're like, "This could've happened, but it didn't. This could've happened." And so I wanted an ending like that, and I was like, "Well, what if for bonus material I write three alternate epilogues that aren't necessarily what did happen, but in my mind, what could've happened after the end?" So, there's three alternate what-could've-happened epilogues after the end of the book.

KO: Oh my goodness. So, you just went on this big UK tour that, as someone that was following along on social media, looked like so much fun. Can you talk about getting to connect with your fans in person like that?

SG: Oh my gosh. You know, it was amazing. So originally, this book was supposed to come out September 12th, and my trip over there was going to be after the book came out. But the book got pushed, and so I said to my UK publisher, "Do you still want me to do events?" And they were like, "Yeah."

It was actually super fun to be there right before the book came out, because normally when I do events, a book has just come out. People haven't read it. And I hadn't been to the UK since my first book came out, and so it was really neat to see readers who'd read all my books, who were anticipating it, who had questions. And everyone was just so sweet. I felt like I had just met so, so many sweet readers. And it was also fun because I felt like these chats were different. Because they were kind of spoilery. Like, one of them ... started it by just being like, "How dare you?"

KO: (laughs)

SG: And everyone knew what she was talking about. And so it was kind of nice to be like, "Okay." We're going to get this out here. But it was really neat. You know, writing can be so isolating at times. And especially this year, the first half of this year, I was just working so much that it's easy to forget, like, "Oh my gosh. This is actually getting in the hands of real readers." And a lot of my readers are young and are teens, and so I feel really special. It feels neat to be able to write something that people are going to read at that age. So it was very heartwarming.

KO: That's so nice. And, you know, sort of speaking of this younger generation, they are online so much. And I feel like, for so many authors, the social media aspect of writing has become almost like a second job, really. And you do a wonderful job of connecting with your fans there. You know, I love your quotes quizzes that you will do every now and then. And you share such beautiful fan art as well from people who love your series. What is that balance of being an author and sort of just wanting to focus on the work, but then also now having to be your own marketer and sort of staying engaged on these platforms and making sure people are still coming back for more?

SG: Well, thank you for saying that. I have fun with it, but, yeah, it's hard to find the balance. I focus mostly on Instagram. I'm not on TikTok. I don't have a Twitter. I'm really bad at updating my Facebook. So I think just having the one platform I focus on helps, but then I also try to give myself kind of seasons.

So right now, I'm like, "Okay, my book's coming out." This is when readers are excited, and so it's kind of fun to be on there, and I just look at it as like, "I just want to keep the excitement going." I think this might sound silly, but (laughs) my whole social media strategy was influenced by my love of Stephenie Meyer.

KO: Aw. I love that.

SG: Yeah. So I remember reading the Twilight books and checking her website every day. And I remember her countdown to the fourth book. She would post a quote. It was like a hundred days before, and she would post a quote every day. And I remember checking, and my sister would check and my friends would check. And sometimes, we would analyze the quotes. And I just remember it being so fun.

And so, I try to think about that a lot in what I'm posting, like, "How can I make this fun for readers?" But then I also give myself times … once this book comes out, shortly after, I'm going to be disappearing for a while, because I'm not great at focusing on social media and writing the book.

So when I'm in a “writing season,” I will intentionally post less. I still try to do the fan art Fridays, because it's easy, and happy book birthdays to people on Tuesdays, because I think that’s kind. So I'll give myself things that I'll do, but then I also make intentional moments to pull back … Also, I don't think I need to promote all year long.

"My whole social media strategy was influenced by my love of Stephenie Meyer."

KO: Just staying organic and in the moments.

SG: Yes.

KO: I'm curious about your writing process, and your writing process in a single book versus your series writing process. You're talking about starting book three and that you really didn't know where you were going to go with it. So, are you just, "Let me just start writing pen to paper. Let me just start going at it here," or are you more sort of sitting down, thinking, "Okay, what beats am I hitting? What's the structure I'm going after?” Is it more of that plotting, or are you just starting right from the gates?

SG: I feel like it's a combination of both. I feel like a second book in a series has to be plotted for me. The first book, the way I'll do it is I spend a lot of time figuring out the setup—Where is my world? Who's my main character? What does she want? Who are the love interests? Who are villains? Because I kind of feel like if I can set the game board up right … the way I see it is kind of like I'll have pillars I want to get to.

Like, here's kind of a big moment at the end, here's a big moment in the middle, and then maybe one or two moments in between—like, the night of the dark soul and, like, that inciting incident. And so, it's like I know these things are going to happen, but the in-between I kind of don't know. And I feel like if I set the book up right enough, there's enough momentum. There's a big enough question. I'll usually write that last half of a book … in like four weeks.

KO: Wow.

SG: But spend months and months and months on that first third of the book to the first half. It's like writing and rewriting and writing and rewriting, because I feel like once you have a certain setup, especially if you know your characters, it can only go so many directions, you know?

KO: Mm-hmm.

SG: And even though there are choices they can make, sometimes things are going to inevitably lead to a certain point, if that makes sense.

KO: Yeah.

SG: And so, for the first book, I feel like I have the most freedom ... Like, with the Once Upon a Broken Heart series, I knew this murder was going to happen at the midpoint. I actually thought it was going to be the inciting incident, but my inciting incident always ends up being the midpoint. But I didn't know who did it for a long time. I kind of had several possibilities in my mind. So as I was writing the book, I was writing to figure out who the killer was.

And then, my way of plotting is very much based on romance beats. Because I’m like, "Okay, if Evangeline and Jacks can't kiss, how can I have them be intimate? Are there moments where I can have them, like, tied up together or, I don't know, put in a small room where someone's injected with vampire venom?"

KO: You know, regular tropes. (laughs)

SG: So, it's like I plan ... plot these moments, yeah, that aren't particularly plotty, and then kind of see how everything else falls. So there's some room for surprise and for organic moments. But then, I feel like for a second book, like Ballad, it had to be pretty well-plotted, especially because that book has a lot of backstory.

And so, I had to write up the backstory and then be strategic about where I was going to put it. And then the third book, it probably should've been more plotted, but I felt like I'd set it up right. So it almost felt like starting over, not in a total way, but it was kind of like I reset the chessboard. So especially for the first half of the book, I'm like, "I can kind of do whatever I want."

Like, all these characters have things they want. They have hurts. They have wounds. And I was like, "Let's just let them play for a while." So I knew as I wrote there were moments I wanted to get to, but for the most, it was less of a plot and more like, "Here are promises I made throughout the series that I need to keep. Here are questions that I owe readers an answer to. Here are expectations I've set up, and I feel like I need to deliver on these."

KO: Are you editing as you go?

SG: Yes. I'll usually write the first quarter to a third of a book, and then I'll go back and edit it before I move on to the next part. And then, I'll write the next part and edit it before I move on. So by the time I finish a whole draft, I've usually edited the first parts of the book a lot.

KO: And you mentioned earlier, too, that you're working with a critique partner on this. So I'm just curious how tight you're keeping that circle when you are working on a series like this and you don't want things to get spoiled. How does that go in terms of sharing your ideas? Are you free and open with your inner circle, or are you trying to be cagey because you want to, you know, keep them in suspense too?

SG: Oh, I am super free with my inner circle. I do a lot of verbal, like talking through things. Actually, oh gosh, for this book, one of my friends who's another author, I was at her house, and I think I made her role-play with me.

KO: I love that.

SG: Yeah. And I was like, "Okay, you be Evangeline; I’ll be Jacks." And then we switched because I was stuck on this scene. So yeah, one night, late at night, we were just trying to act out. (laughs)

KO: You're your own narrator. (laughs)

SG: Yeah, the Evangeline-Jacks scene. So I have a small circle of friends who I share with, but then I share everything about the book with them. I don't try to be cagey about any of it because I also feel like if I can't verbally tell a story, then I can't tell it on paper. So I think it's really good to just kind of talk out the beats. And also, it lets people ask questions. And a lot of times, they will ask very basic, simple questions that I haven't thought of, because I'm thinking of all of these things.

KO: Right.

"If I can't verbally tell a story, then I can't tell it on paper."

SG: Oh, here's how I nod to this and this. And they're like, "Ooh, what about what happens to this character?" I'll be like, "Oh. I hadn't thought of that."

KO: (laughs) “Thank you. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.” And I think that is a huge part of why your audiobooks are so loved too. You know, just talking about how you have to know that they sound right as well, that you are reading these parts out loud, that you are working through things verbally, I think that that really comes through in the storytelling.

SG: Oh, good. I'm so glad. I do read—I think, it's usually pass pages—I read them out aloud as I go through. It comes out differently when you're reading it out loud.

KO: Yeah, it makes a difference. So in your epilogue, I feel like you are setting us up for potentially some future stories set in the Magnificent North again with a certain family that I won't necessarily spoil. Is that a safe guess? What are you working on next?

SG: Ooh. So here's my answer. I would love to return to the Magnificent North. I feel like if readers want more books set in the Magnificent North, I'm happy to deliver that. I don't think I can say anything about what I'm working on next. My next thing is actually written.

KO: Ooh.

SG: I know. I'm supposed to turn in edits to my editor, like, either today or tomorrow. I have like five pages [left to finish], and then I'm sending it off. And the thing after? I'm still figuring it out. But definitely, I would be very happy to return to the Magnificent North. I feel like I wanted to close up this series because I felt like these characters deserved a break from me.

Like, poor, poor Evangeline. But also, I think I'm thinking of the same family you are. I felt like there was so, so many more stories. I feel like in my mind, there's still things happening, and it would be fun to go back. But I can't say what I'm doing now.

KO: Can you say if it's a series or a standalone?

SG: Um, no. I mean, because even as I'm tempted to answer, I feel like sometimes I will say things, and then, until it's written, it could totally change. Even as I was writing Once Upon a Broken Heart, I was like, "I don't know what this is going to be." Like, as I pitched it to my editor, I was like, "I don't know if this is a standalone. I don't know if this is a series. I just feel like this is the book of my heart that I need to write."

KO: Well, I tried, listeners. I tried. (laughs) No matter what it is, we will all be eagerly waiting to see what's next.

SG: Thank you. The next project, I'm very excited about. Really, I feel like it's very fun. And I know my idea of fun is a little twisted, so it's slightly twisted fun.

KO: I can't wait. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciated getting to chat with you.

SG: Oh my gosh. Thank you for your questions and for listening to all the books or reading them. It was really fun to chat about them.

KO: And listeners, you can get A Curse for True Love right now on Audible.