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Margaret Hargrove: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Margaret Hargrove, and today I'm thrilled to be speaking with romance author Kennedy Ryan about her new novel, Can't Get Enough. Kennedy, welcome back. It's nice to see you again. We first spoke in 2023 about your Audible Original romance Coming Home. I'm excited to be talking to you today about Can't Get Enough, which is the final book in your Skyland series.

Kennedy Ryan: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be back and excited to talk about Can't Get Enough, of course.

MH: You have truly saved your best for last. I loved Can't Get Enough so much. But to be honest, the entire series has been a joy to listen to and experience. Just to recap, to catch us up on how we've arrived here at Book 3, the Skyland series highlights a group of three friends, all Black women from diverse backgrounds. The first novel, Before I Let Go, is the story of Yasmen, a recently divorced mother of two learning to love again after significant grief and depression. The second, This Could Be Us, follows Soledad, a stay-at-home mom of three learning how to self-partner after her husband betrays her trust. And in Can't Get Enough, we finally get Hendrix's story. So my first question is, was it always your plan for Hendrix's story to come last?

KR: Yes, it was. It's kind of a strange way this series even came to be, because Before I Let Go is the first book I ever wrote. I wrote Before I Let Go like 15 years ago. Of course, I was self-publishing for a long time, and when it was time for me to come back to traditional publishing with this series, I wasn't sure what I wanted to write. I wasn't sure what I wanted to bring back. And my husband goes, "Well, what about that divorce book you wrote like 15 years ago?" I was like, "Oh, it was trash." He goes, "No, no, no. Go back to it." Because he and my sister were the only ones who had ever read it.

I went back to it and it was trash [laughs]. It was third-person, it was one POV, so there was no male point of view. There was no therapy. I always say that Before I Let Go was the book that was waiting for me to grow up. It was all the hurt and none of the healing. I really felt like I needed to live a lot. I had another 15 years of marriage, of motherhood, of being a woman navigating the world, and that all informed that book so much. Hendrix and Soledad were not in that original draft, so I really reshaped that whole book. But the family, the grief, all of that was there. So, Hendrix and Soledad coming into the story, I knew they were going to get stories, but I didn't know them as well. I'm just kind of easing into who these people are. I knew, obviously, Yasmen was first, and I knew Soledad was second, and I honestly always felt like I was saving Hendrix for last.

Everybody will have their favorite book. Some people will be like, "Oh, Before I Let Go is my favorite.” But I always felt like, not like I'm saving the best for last, because everyone's going to have their favorite. But I just felt like I was saving Hendrix for last. Hendrix is playing kind of a different role in each story. She's the same person, but in Before I Let Go, it's such a heavy story in some places, where you have the depression and the loss and the grief and all of that. Hendrix is a lot of times comic relief in that book. And then in Soledad's story, in This Could Be Us, Soledad's going through a lot, and Hendrix is the rich auntie and she is helping her in so many ways, financially with her kids, rebuilding her life. And so we see Hendrix being a really good friend throughout the first part of the series. And this is like, “It's your turn.” We have seen her really building her friends up, and it's like the spotlight shifts to her.

"I always say that 'Before I Let Go' was the book that was waiting for me to grow up. It was all the hurt and none of the healing."

It's so funny because this cover is the first photo that I found when we were looking at different photos. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, we have to use this." My editor was like, "Yeah, but you've talked about Yasmen as like this sense of release and rebirth." And we found this photo where the lady's head is kind of tipped back and she looks like she's having this moment. We were like, "That is that story." I said, "Oh, but this is Hendrix." Because I knew Hendrix was bold and looking right into the camera. And so I have been saving this photo literally for three years to use for Hendrix's cover. It just felt like there was a lot that I was saving for this story.

MH: So, now that you've completed this trilogy, I'm not going to ask you to pick your favorite, because I feel like that's like asking a mother to pick your favorite child. They're all your favorite. But is there one woman out of the three that particularly resonates with you on a deep personal level, one who you see a lot of yourself in?

KR: Yeah, I think it would probably be Hendrix, which I think could surprise some people, because I'm a mom and people sometimes on the surface would be like, "You guys aren't the same." But Hendrix, it's so funny because I have alpha readers, people who read my books first, before anybody does, and one of them has been with me for almost eight years and we know each other really well. When she read Hendrix, she was like, "It really feels like with Hendrix you're coming home." She was like, "Because I see so much of you in Hendrix."

Hendrix is a country girl, and I am a country girl. I draw a distinction between being Southern and being country, like rural. I'm from rural North Carolina. I grew up in the church very much in the same way. It's interesting because I have a playlist of like 60 songs, because music is such a part of my creative process. I just shared 10 of them the other day, and they were like, “You go from Doechii to Kirk Franklin? And Beyoncé's ‘Church Girl’? Like, what is happening here?”

So, a lot of that is in there, of growing up in church. I very much identify with Hendrix in that way. I think you don't really know this about her until you get into this story. You see how engaged she is with the community, with the venture capital fund for Black women and other things that she's doing, kind of engaged in justice. There's a lot of social commentary to her story. I keep telling people, “I feel like my stories are this intersection of swoon and social commentary,” and I think Hendrix's story of the three is almost the most explicitly that.

MH: Well, Hendrix is a boss. She has a successful career as a talent manager. She's passionate about her venture capital firm that supports Black women-owned businesses, like you mentioned, and she's about to embark on a new adventure as a television producer. But in the midst of all this success, however, there is hardship as Hendrix is also caring for her mother with Alzheimer's, which you hat-tipped to. You always take such good care and are so thoughtful in crafting real-life challenges in your books. Can you tell us what research or personal experiences you drew from in crafting Hen's story?

KR: It was pretty exhaustive. When I talk about my creative process and my writing process, 60 percent of it is always research and interviews and masterclass. I take masterclasses a lot. And then the last 40 percent is the actual typing. In this book, especially since my grandmother was living with dementia at the time, it was really close to my heart. I interviewed my mom, who was my grandmother's primary caregiver, and my aunt who my grandmother lived with. I interviewed them, but I interviewed probably a good 10 other people who were dealing with some form of dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's.

I also interviewed caregivers and medical professionals who dealt with that. There were several books I read, two of the ones that stand out are The 36-Hour Day and Let's Talk Dementia. Those were two of the books that informed some of my thoughts about it. It's funny because certain aspects of those interviews make their way into the story. There's a line in there that talks about, or maybe it's even in my foreword, because I read the author's note at the beginning on the audiobook, and then I read the afterword at the end as well. But I talk about how this is a difficult condition, but sometimes it surprises you with humor. You kind of have to laugh, you know? This thing is so hard. It's a condition that is degenerative and it's not going to reverse. It's not going to get better. But at the same time, how the mind surprises you and some of the things that you retain, that I was reading about, and it makes its way into the book.

There's a conversation that Hendrix and Maverick, who is the hero, have when they're talking about the miracle of the brain and how there are people who have certain forms of dementia who maybe can't even talk but can still sing, or can’t remember things but can still sing complete songs. And just talking about those miracles and the way the mind surprises you. That was a big thing that I took away from it. But also in talking with so many people, my mom and my aunt included, it is a difficult condition, but that they felt a certain, I don't know if the word is privilege, but it was like these are people who took care of me—

MH: No, I mean, I get it. This is a personal experience that I share with Hen. My mother had Alzheimer's. I remember this was briefly mentioned in This Could Be Us, but I didn't know coming into it, it was going to be the focus of Can't Get Enough. But I have to tell you that you have done a beautiful, beautiful job showcasing the complexities of this terrible disease, not only for the person living with it but also for the caregiver. And the vulnerability. There's a moment toward the end where Hendrix's mom, she tells her that she's scared, and they have that moment. That was just so powerful because it is, it's a terrible disease.

My mother is literally the smartest woman I've ever known in my life, and to see the decline over the years, where towards the end she was completely nonverbal. I think probably for the last six to nine months of her life, I don't even think she knew who I was. And I was her only child. Like, we were two peas in a pod. I feel like you have just taken so much care with the story that I feel like anyone who's going through this experience is going to feel seen and they're going to feel supported and they're going to see a part of their experience represented in how you have unfolded Hen's story.

KR: Thank you.

MH: We'll move on from the emotional stuff. So, caring for her mother leaves little time for romance. Yet Hendrix meets billionaire and tech mogul Maverick Bell at a party, and their connection is immediate and electric. The relationship between Hen and Mav challenges the idea that professional success and romantic fulfillment are mutually exclusive. There's a moment in the story when Hen is reminded that she said, "Being whole means acknowledging all of our parts." And she realizes that the right one won't ask you to give up your dreams but will run with you while you chase them. How do you balance these competing priorities in Hendrix's journey?

"This whole series is saying our lives are more than romantic relationships."

KR: I think a big part of it is Hendrix, frankly, has not seen a lot of men who would fit into her life in the sense that it's exactly what you just said, where it's like, “I need somebody who's, first of all, not going to be threatened by my success. Someone who's not going to expect me to give up my dreams or my goals or to subvert my dreams and my goals.” And believe it or not, it's not like every man is like that, and it takes a special guy. I know because I'm married to a special guy, who is not threatened by success and who we have a symbiosis in our relationship where I want the absolute best for him, and he wants the absolute best for me. And because we are friends first, and because we love each other so deeply, we will do whatever it takes to see that for each other.

I think that a key to that balance is finding a partner who understands that, and it can be hard. Again, I'm not making generalizations, but there's so much male toxicity in culture, it is harder than you think to sometimes find a man. Sometimes they think that they'll be fine with it. They think they'll be fine with the success. They think they'll be fine with you being as driven as they are, and you being as engaged as they are, and you not having time maybe to cook and clean and do those things the same way he doesn't have time to cook and clean and do those things. Theoretically, they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah." But the reality of that situation, there has to be an agreement, there has to be an understanding, there has to be an alignment of values and worldview.

It's so funny because I was listening to Tracee Ellis Ross on a podcast the other day. She was saying, "Sometimes I have grief about the fact that I haven't had kids and I haven't found a life partner. And I have a really big life." And she said something to the effect of, "I would rather have this really big life that I love and have these moments than have been with the wrong person, or someone who didn't want me to have this big life." I think that is so clearly what Hendrix is saying. She's like, "I want this big life. My life is more than a romantic relationship." And I think, honestly, this whole series is saying our lives are more than romantic relationships, which is ironic because it's a romance series.

But if you look at something like This Could Be Us, the second book, you talk about self-partnering and self-love, half the book, she's dating herself. And even in this story, not to give spoilers, but Hendrix talks about that relationship with those two women as platonic soulmates. Hendrix is someone who believes in having a very big life, and in chasing the fullness of her dreams and her goals, the full dimension of her experience, and that romantic love is one aspect of that. I think there's a lot in culture that feeds women the thought that romantic love is the biggest part of your life, and that you get that settled, you get your marriage and you get your kids, and then you squeeze everything else in. And Hendrix is like, "I don't want to squeeze everything else in. I want everything. And I will figure out the parts that don't compromise each other, including a romantic partner."

I think what I'm saying to women is not “don't have kids,” obviously, or “don't get married,” obviously. I think what I'm saying is, “Know what you want, know who you are.” Especially when we're younger, we don't spend enough time with ourselves to understand what will make us happy, and we end up just taking whatever culture has told us should make us happy. I think Hendrix at 40 is saying, "I have had a lot of time by myself. I know what I want. I am content with myself." One of my favorite clips is Eartha Kitt, and I think I quote her in This Could Be Us, and I'll mess the quote up, but she's basically like, "I want to have this amazing life. And then someone who comes alongside to enjoy it with me." I think that's kind of the essence of who Hendrix is. “I'm going to build this big life. You build your big life. And then we can run together.”

MH: Listen, I'm over 40 and it's hard out here [laughs]. So, trust me, yes, you do encounter a lot of men, like you said, who they present to be progressive, but the reality is often different, which is why I feel like Mav's pursuit of Hen is so epic. This man spares no expense. Private planes, trip to Malibu, dozens and dozens and dozens of champagne roses that he has delivered to her no matter where she is. But even beyond the material things, he also helps her navigate her mother's care and he supports her through a really devastating threat to her venture capital firm.

So, I wrote in my May Editors Select that "Mav's love for Hen feels so restorative and healing. It's the kind of love that helps Hendrix fill her own cup, enabling her to continue showing up for everyone else in her life." It was so refreshing to see how this Black man loves and shows up for this Black woman. Because, again, in today's dating era, every story I hear from friends is, "Oh, he ghosted me" or "I haven't heard from him." And Maverick shows up. But some people would maybe call Maverick's pursuit of Hen “love bombing.” Because even when she says no, even when she tells him, "I need space," he keeps coming for her. I thought it was romantic. My romance, someone's love bombing. But what's your perspective on his actions?

KR: Yeah, my editor and I even had this conversation with the very word love bombing. She was like, "Are we love bombing?" And I was like, “Okay, let me make sure I know exactly what that is.” And then I said, “You know what? I don't feel like there's a point where it feels like he's stalking Hendrix or that he is really doing something that she doesn't really want.” I also feel like what I really wanted to showcase in this story is a plus-size Black woman being pursued and being spoiled and being loved. I always talk about writing from the margins to the center. I talk about identities, communities, whatever that is, disabilities, neurodiversity. And being fat or plus-size, we are not used to being at the center of narrative and we are not used to being the girl who's chased and loved. It can ride a fine line of love bombing. But the way I think about it is loving outrageously. I wanted Hendrix to feel this outrageous love.

In context, once people are reading the story, I hope that what they see is that those are not things that would move Hendrix. It's not that he's wealthy. There are so many things I do to try to subvert the kind of billionaire trope, when we're talking about a billionaire, especially now, that's all I'll say. She's watching the way he lives his life. She's watching his character, she's watching him give huge sums of money to HBCUs. She's watching him explore his own venture capital fund where he is exploring venture capital and cannabis for the Black community, because it's been traditionally criminalized and now that it's legal in so many places, looking for a way for it to be redemptive and we can create generational wealth with something that was used against us. And he's very interested in helping Black women founders.

So, it's not just the flowers and those things. That's not really what impresses Hendrix. When she first starts talking with Yasmen and Soledad about them, and those are some of my favorite conversations, it's when it's just the three of them. They're looking at him on his socials, and they're like, "Ooh, look at him.” Because he's a Black boy surfer. And so they're like, "Ooh, look at his abs. Oh, whoa, he just gave lots of money to HBC. Oh, my gosh, look at the house." And Hendrix goes, "And he's really kind." The thing that Hendrix teases out is how kind he is, his compassion and how he understood her journey with her mother, because he had a loved one who had also navigated Alzheimer's.

I know the trappings of the story are very glamorous. But the thing that draws Hendrix is not the flowers. It's not the jet. It is none of that. It is his kindness. It is his generosity. It is the fact that he's not toxic, and that's really what convinces her. Again, I don't want to give too much away, but they have this kind of pivotal conversation where she's articulating all the things that we were talking about. Like, "Look, I got my dreams. I got goals. I'm not going to be distracted by this." And he has this phrase, and it's one of my favorite things, he goes, "Hen, I'm not going to take that away from you. Let's just be good to each other."

MH: Maverick is the prototype [laughs]. If you're not like Maverick Bell, I don't want it. So, Can't Get Enough is definitely the spiciest of the three books in the Skyland series. All I'm going to say: coat closet and whiskey.

KR: I knew it. I knew those two. Yes, I've been getting that a lot.

MH: A $200,000 bottle of whiskey. Ma'am, can you come to the front of the congregation and address this? It feels like you had a lot of fun writing those scenes.

KR: I did. I really did. I wanted readers to have fun with it, too. I think so many times when people think about me as a writer, they think about crying. They do! People are like, "Oh, gosh, I gotta gird my loins to read Kennedy Ryan, because I'm gonna be sobbing.” And I know that, especially with the dementia/Alzheimer's storyline, there are people who experience that. I get that.

But I think it's the funniest book of the three, I think it's the spiciest book of the three. And people are often quote, unquote, accusing me of "not really writing romance." They're like, "Is it romance? Is it women's fiction?" And I'm like, "Yes. The answer is yes." There's obviously elements of women's fiction because that's just kind of what I do. I've been telling my friends, I feel like it's the most purely romance book of the series. You've got the chase, it's very spicy. For me, I think it's very spicy. There are actually scenes that my editor had to pull back, and they were even spicier. My editor was like, "Okay, I think we're going to have to pull it back a little bit." And I'm like, "You tell me, because I'm having a good time right now.” [laughs]

MH: It definitely feels that way [laughs]. Well, let's talk about Wesleigh and Jakobi. I mean, they don't even need last names, but Wesleigh Siobhan and Jakobi Diem. I like to call them the dream team.

KR: I do too.

MH: They narrate Can't Get Enough. They also narrated the first book in the series, Before I Let Go, as well as your Audible Original Coming Home. How does it feel to have them back to narrate Can't Get Enough?

KR: I always wanted that to be the case. I knew, even before I was writing the book, I had them in mind. Those were the voices. I just told my team, "It's them." They're like, "Who are you thinking for audio?" There's no auditions, there's no questions. It's them. As long as they're willing to do it. I have worked with Jakobi more than any other narrator. Jakobi and I have won now two Audie Awards together, which is amazing. Amazing, amazing, amazing.

Wesleigh is so Hendrix-coded to me. When I'm listening to the audiobook myself right now, people got some ALCs [advanced listener copies] so they're starting to like, "Oh, my gosh!" It's 15 hours. It's the longest of the books and I didn't even realize that. But it's 15 hours and I'm like, “Is this a romantasy? Is it a fantasy? How did this end up being a 15-hour audiobook?” But when you're listening to Wesleigh as Hendrix, it just pops. She has all the voices and she's so distinct with the three women. When they're talking to each other, the three women, Wesleigh just shines. And, of course, Jakobi, everybody is like, "That voice, just pour it all over me."

MH: Like the whiskey? [laughs]

KR: Like the whiskey. Yes, yes [laughs]. For me, it was always them. It's so funny because we have our own thread going, the three of us, where we talk about things in the book. I'm just so honored to have titans in narration on this project. I wouldn't change a thing about them. They just did a fantastic job. I think there are so many points where it shows their range. Wesleigh in one scene has to go from this moment where she is literally on the phone with her mom, walking her through something because she's having a tough time, and then a few minutes before, leading the electric slide and then flirting with Maverick. There's so much range of emotion and expression that Wesleigh and Jakobi both have to show in this book. I really feel like they just did such a great performance, an actual performance is to me what they've done.

"I think a lot of times we underestimate what romance is capable of ... Romance isn't just an escape from life. Romance, when it's done in a particular way, can inform life."

MH: Your longtime fans will love all the Easter eggs that you've hidden in Can't Get Enough. There were some fun surprise appearances of characters from your Grip and Hoops series. This gives me hope that this won't be the last we see of the ladies of Skyland.

KR: Yeah. I love to do that. Grip from Grip and Lotus from the Hoops series are my most cameo'd characters. They popped up in the Kingmaker series. They pop up all over. Different ones do, but for whatever reason, they tend to be in my books a lot. We have a couple of, like you said, Hoops cameos, brief Grip cameo. The thing is, there are some side characters that people are constantly asking me about. People have told me we could do a whole spin-off with just Soledad's sisters. There's so much that I could do right now. This is the last of Skyland proper. Who knows what could happen, but you probably will see them again in some book of mine. Because to me it makes these characters feel more real. This is the Kennedy universe and these are real people, even though they're different books. It's an actual world, and so of course we could encounter each other out in the wild.

MH: And maybe we'll see them on our TV screen soon.

KR: Yes, yes.

MH: Before I Let Go has been optioned by Peacock and is being adapted into a series. Are there any updates that you can share with us?

KR: There are updates, but not that I can share. That's the most-asked question. I get that question several times a week and in my DMs and in the comments, people are like, "Is this still happening?" And I'm like, “It definitely is.” It takes time. We are working really, really hard behind the scenes. It takes so much to get something actually on screen. So many things are optioned and such a low percentage of all the things that are optioned actually make it to screen. So we are working hard to do everything that we're supposed to do. As soon as we have updates that we can share, we will. But it's definitely still happening. It is Before I Let Go, but it also encompasses the storylines, depending on where we go, of Hendrix and Soledad, because it is a television show, so it's an ensemble cast and we are having a really good time with translating that, trying to figure how to translate that to television.

MH: I can't wait to see it. It's going to be exciting. So, Kennedy, you have given us more than enough with Can't Get Enough. But I have to ask, what are you working on next?

KR: Oh, gosh. I'm so excited about it and terrified about it. I'm working on Score. Which is Reel. It's probably one of the hardest books I've ever written. I don't want to give too much away about why, but I lean into research. My background is journalism, so the cornerstone is research, interview, all that. I've already interviewed probably 15 people, taken three masterclasses, read five memoirs. It's such an immersive experience for me. I feel like Reel is, for me as a writer, a high bar as far as what that experience is. I feel pressure for the second book in the series, because I love the first book so much, and I love these characters so much. I think there's a lot that readers will not see coming. We're in the deep with Score. We'll be probably revealing the cover relatively soon, and then it'll release next year.

I would say releasing a book and writing a book at the same time is quite the undertaking. It's been a lot, but it's been all good. Everyone has been so excited about Can't Get Enough. I will say that Hendrix is a character that it feels like people have been waiting for. She's a lot of people's favorite character, and so I wanted to give them such a send-off. That's what I wanted for them, was for everybody to feel like they're okay and they're friends and they are with their partners in amazing ways and in different ways.

It's very bittersweet to see this series coming to an end, because I think in this series, there's so many times where I wanted to subvert what people expect about romance and I'm like, "No, this is still romance." The couple being divorced, that's romance. That's what second chance looks like to me. The couple who maybe won't ever get married but are together for life, that's romance. We rarely see a woman in romance who's childless by choice get her happily ever after. That's romance.

I think a lot of times we underestimate what romance is capable of. I am always looking for ways to, in my unique way, say romance isn't just an escape from life. Romance, when it's done in a particular way, can inform life. Not in a way that gives us unrealistic expectations, but in a way that says, "You are celebrated, you are centered, you should be respected, you should be loved outrageously, and you don't have to settle." People think of romance sometimes as a portal out of life. I think about it in the reverse. I think of romance as a portal into your life, the way that I am coming into your life and we're having a conversation or a discourse and maybe transformation of some type.

MH: Kennedy, the care and attention that you pour into your work allows me and so many other Black women in particular to see ourselves reflected and loved in ways we've never seen before. I have found so much hope and joy and healing through your books. I've listened to them all, but that's especially true of this series and Can't Get Enough. I can't thank you enough for being you, and thank you so much for your time today.

KR: Thank you so much for having me, giving me the chance to talk about this.

MH: Listeners, you can get Can't Get Enough by Kennedy Ryan on Audible now.