Dr. Becky Kennedy helps kids—and parents—see the good inside them

Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.

Katie O’Connor: Hi, listeners. I'm Audible Editor Katie O'Connor, and today I'm thrilled to be speaking with clinical psychologist, social media sensation, and author of the new book Good Inside, Dr. Becky Kennedy. Welcome, Dr. Becky.

Dr. Becky Kennedy: Thanks, Katie. I'm really excited to be talking with you.

KO: So, first, I just wanted to say thank you. I have been following your Good Inside movement for a few years now and you have helped me and my husband and my kids just countless times. And I'm sure you hear that a lot. And that must be a surreal experience, just to know that you have helped so many families that you'll likely never meet. Can you talk to me about your social platform and why you decided to start posting there in the first place?

BK: Yeah, happy to jump in there. It is this kind of fortuitous series of events. So, I should say, I've always had this desire in my career, this might sound odd, but for more movement. That's the only way I can describe it. I've actually never connected how I've always said that to the idea of Good Inside as a movement, so I'll think about that after the interview. But I've been in my private practice, I love getting to know families, and there was something in my office, I was like, "I literally want to move around more. I don't want to sit in this chair all day. I want to move around. I want to move around with ideas and different conversations." So, I've always known at some point, and I always felt like when my kids got a little bit older, I would want to do something different. And it was a blank slate. So there was that.

Then, recognizing that as well, I had kind of MacGyvered this sleep product for my daughter, who was at the time three. Major issue sleeping, waking up every night, wasn't responding to anything. I was exhausted and I created this product for her after racking my brain, thinking, "Okay, I know I'm not going go lock her in her door and make her vomit. That's not the sleep approach that feels right to me. And what do I know about attachment, about coping skills, about separation?” And I created this button of sorts. And one day I got talking to my friend about it, who was an entrepreneur, and she's like, "Becky, this is something we should explore. We should make this, and we should then actually make it, and create it." And we actually got so far to make a prototype and get it shipped to us, and we got really excited. And I remember then one day my sister said, who's a lot younger, she's like, "Well, if you're going to put out a product as kind of an expert, you have to be on Instagram." And I was like, "Oh, I guess I do. I think you're right." And I probably have been counseling my clients for years to get off social media, so I had to figure that out.

But then I really came to my computer one morning and said, "Okay, well, if I'm going to put up things on Instagram, what would I even write?" And it really is this story of—I learned so much about myself through this, and I was like, "Let me just write one thing. I don't know, what's on my mind?" And then something unfolded for six weeks where I just couldn't stop. I really would be playing with my kids and I'd be like, "I'm sorry. I have to go to my computer. I have to write this thought down." It was a little nutty, you know?

And I had so much out there, but then, by the end of that six weeks, my friend and I realized it was really the ideas more than the physical product itself that were really exciting me. So, I was like, "Oh, well, I was only going to start an Instagram account because I thought I was putting out this product. What now?" My private practice was full. I was like, "I don't know." I can remember where I was. My husband just goes, "I don't know, I guess it lives on your computer, or you put it on Instagram." You know? And I remember thinking, "Yeah, I guess I've already written it so let me just put something out."

And I put out my first post February 28, 2020. So, I think that was exactly two weeks before—I live in Manhattan, it was before Manhattan really shut down. And then two weeks after that, around I think March 12, 13, whatever it was, I was like, "I have a lot of ideas I want to get out about coronavirus." And I put out this post and it was kind of odd. I remember saying to my husband, who was helping me edit it and found some typos, "I just want to get this out. This is good." I had a really good feeling. And it was about how our kids would remember more about how their family homes felt during coronavirus than anything about the virus itself: "Our kids are watching us and learning how to respond to uncertainty. Let's wire them for resilience and not panic, swipe for nine ideas how to do this.” And then the next nine slides, when I look back on it, I was like, "Oh my God, I feel bad for anyone who read that." It was like an essay in Instagram. I apologize to everyone. But it struck a chord because then it was like, "Oh my goodness. I have 1,000 followers, I have 5,000." I remember at that point you got a swipe up when you had 10,000. I was like, "Oh, I got a swipe up. What is this?" And then a little bit the rest is history. But that's really how it all began.

KO: And 1.3 million followers later, you have amassed quite a community. And I saw on your stories recently that 40 percent of your followers are from outside the US. And you had some wonderful responses when you started asking people where they were going to be enjoying your book. It was a lot of fun to see that sort of fly in. And cultural nuance does come up in parenting conversations. I was curious if you leave space for that, and what is it about your approach that makes it so global?

BK: You're pointing out something that I have done a lot of thinking about, and definitely with my team and people I consult with, and really people I learned from. There is this duality. I get the most information from the people who are in our membership, because those are the people I interact with all the time. And I'm like, “Wow, we have three members in Malta.” I think we have a very active member in Guatemala, in Dubai, in Sweden, in Ukraine.

KO: Wow.

BK: ... living in Ukraine. And then New York and San Paolo, like all over. And what's amazing to me is there are so many cultural differences, there are so many socioeconomic differences, there are so many ways where race and privilege impact every aspect of our life. One-hundred percent true. Something else I found to be remarkable is the conversations that happen. I was like, "Wow, we're all stressed, we are all overwhelmed. We all somehow are doubting our good enough-ness. We all struggle to set boundaries. We all have things that trigger us, we all have the ability to show each other compassion.” There really does seem something global about these ideas. And I think what I draw from in that, is that there's something really connecting us all. And it's why everything was called Good Inside.

"I have to shout-out my therapist, who I see every week and definitely want everyone to know that. I always think therapy is a sign of everything we're doing right, in terms of recognizing that we need others."

Someone asked me the other day, they're like, "Tell me about the Dr. Becky platform and the Dr. Becky book." And I kind of bristled and I realized why. It's not called that. I take pride in, obviously, being a big part of it, but I really do believe the model for what's happening at Good Inside is I really do feel I've been let in as a partner in people's journey of clearing away all the stuff in them that used to help them, but now holds them back. To access this inner sturdiness and confidence that I really do believe is inside every person. And I don't think I put that there at all. I actually, I really do, feel honored to be on so many people's journey, because we all need people on our journey, right? And I guess there's something global about that journey that, yes, is different cross-culturally, and there's just something that's uniting us all.

KO: Yeah, I think you're right. A lot of what we go up against as parents can feel very universal. But it's important to start having those conversations because it can be so isolating, and you don't realize that what you're going through is happening to the people around you as well. You mentioned your team and resources that you were checking, and this leads me to something that I wanted to ask you, which is: You're one of my main resources, but who are you turning to when a new problem comes up? Where are you going first?

BK: It's amazing timing that you're asking me that question. So, I'm talking to you at 11 a.m. on a Thursday, and Thursdays are my carved-out time in my calendar, before 11, where I meet with this group of friends. We have this exercise class we do, sometimes it's just we put something on online. We exercise together, then we get coffee together. We sometimes go to my apartment and I'll, you know, literally this morning we made eggs and toast and stuff like that. And that group, and honestly carving out that time in my day, because today's the day right before my book comes out that I had a million calls on my time before 11 a.m. Starting my day as a full-time working person at 11 is bold, especially before I'm about to travel. And knowing those boundaries of, yeah, I do pour a lot of energy out and I need to schedule in things in my life that I feel replenish and give me that energy back in.

So, I have such an amazing group of friends who’ve made this all possible. I mean, I went from working two days and now working seven days, and they're the friends who were like, "Hey, don't miss this email from the school. Becky, you might've missed it." And I'm like, "Oh, I missed it, thank you." And then my husband truly has been the most amazing partner in this journey and has been so supportive, and I really feel like we've really shifted a lot of our gender roles. Not a 180 on them, but some shifting. My parents and my family are huge rocks for me. And then I have to shout-out my therapist, who I see every week and definitely want everyone to know that. I always think therapy is a sign of everything we're doing right, in terms of recognizing that we need others. And carving out space for ourselves [is] never a sign of anything that's wrong with us.

KO: Yeah, and you make a great point in Good Inside about how you don't want your kids to remember you as someone who was completely dedicated to them, completely dedicated to your job, never had time for yourself, never did anything instead. And I think this was such a great framing that you were there for them, you supported them, you loved them, but you also really valued self-care. And it is a fine line, it's something we all have to learn how to balance, but that hit home for me when I heard that.

BK: Oh, I'm so glad, and I think there's so many things that I think are happening with Good Inside. And on the surface, and I can tell you see through this right away, but on the surface and when people encounter us for the first time, they're like, "Oh, I love your scripts and I love your reels." And I'm going to keep doing those things. I can't not, they just pour out of me. I am so excited by so many ideas. But someone said actually recently, we're talking about in the community, they're like, "Come for the scripts, stay for the revolution." And I was like, "Yeah, if Good Inside had a tagline, that's what I would make it.” Because you're like, "Yeah, that script helps. And finally there's a way where I can have really firm boundaries and also be really empathic with my kids. Finally, there's a way where I actually do feel like I respect their feelings, and I actually really do feel like I'm respecting my own feelings."

And it's actually very revolutionary to have a model of parenting—and I think there's a little asterisk sort of saying, especially mothering—where the caregivers are saying, "I matter and it's not mutually exclusive." When I have boundaries, when I see my own needs, when I see myself for all the parts of me, not just the way I care about other people and care for other people, I show up as a sturdier leader in all parts of my life. And kids need sturdy leaders. And so it really is everyone can win with this shift that I really feel is like the core of what we're doing.

KO: You cover so many amazing topics in your audiobook: tantrums, sibling rivalry, anxiety. How did you decide what to include and how to order it, ultimately?

BK: Yeah, so the reason I even wrote a book in the first place, my Instagram from the start was very content-rich. There was a lot of content out there. So, pretty early, book agents or book publishers were contacting me saying, "Hey, do you want to write a book? I think you have a book in you." And I remember thinking, "I don't know if I have a book in me?" I've never wanted to write a book, in my mind, that could have been a pamphlet. If I'm going to write a book, I was like, “It's got to be meaningful.” And I always knew I don't just want to put my Instagram posts together and make a book. People can get that for free and I love that we have that there.

"One of the most liberating things in my own parenting is I don't hold myself to Dr. Becky standards with my kids."

And so what ended up happening toward the end of 2020, again, speaking to the power of when you start something, you end up generating more thoughts than you would have if you hadn't started it, right? There’s such an amazing cycle that happens. That toward the end of 2020, with all my writing I started doing because of social media, I said, "Oh, my goodness, everything I talk about comes back to these same 10 principles. Like, everything." And, actually, social media, or a podcast, it's not a great place to put together a whole arc of an approach. It's too disjointed. And I was like, "I want to write that down." And then at that point, when book talks were happening, I was like, "Oh, this is my book." And then after that, I was like, "Oh, my goodness, you know what I hate? I hate going to a talk or reading a book from someone I find very compelling but being left without the like, 'Okay, well, what do I do? But what do I do? Just make the leap for me.'" That's always been my frustration.

So, I held that in mind. I was like, "Okay, so after I lay out those principles—which still are pretty grounded in reality, they're not intellectualized—you know what I'm going to do? I want to go through the top, I don't remember what it is, 15, 20 problems that people for decades have come to me to talk about in my private practice. I just know, being in it, these are some of the top topics in my private practice and these are some of the things I'm most asked about over DM. And what if I just went through those one at a time and showed how those principles came to life in understanding what was happening. And then took it a step further, saying, "Okay, so given that here are my top four strategies for that problem…" And then I was like, "I know I like things laid out too. How would I apply that in real life?" And so then I end with a vignette showing how you could actually apply those things.

So, I actually think it was this combination of thinking about this book both as a little bit of a manifesto, like, “Here's some big ideas,” but also the thing you can just keep on your bedside. So, you're like, "Oh, my kid’s started lying to me. That's never happened. Oh, there was a lying chapter I skipped because it didn't matter to me and now I can just go there and that's the way I can use it as a handbook as well."

KO: Yeah, there's definitely lots of bookmarking happening with my audiobook [laughing]. Was there an anecdote or a challenge that you wanted to include that ultimately got cut from the final version?

BK: I mean, there's so many topics that I like going deep on, right? And people have said to me, "I wish you had one course." Part of me is like, "Yeah, I wish that." But I don’t wish that, because I feel like there's a realistic message I want to give parents. Parenting is a journey. It's not a onetime thing. Even if there was a 10-hour course, most of us, for a lot of our jobs, we still have to do continuing-ed. This is parenting. It's the hardest job, and it's the most important job, and it's a job you do 24/7.

There's a lot to do, and so when I think about what was left out of the book, each of those chapters I feel like could be their own book. And in some ways, I've had the opportunity to make workshops on each, which I don't think people necessarily need the workshops at all, but if any of those things you’re like, "Oh, I want more, I know I need something more," there is a deeper dive even than that. But I think the things that were left out of the book are the things that would've made each chapter like “Deeply Feeling Kids,” “Whine,” “Defiance,” “Tantrums,” “Not Listening”—I actually feel like I really do now have a book in me for all almost of those to just give parents such a bigger toolbox.

KO: I will line up for that. I have done a couple of your workshops. I did Sibling Rivalry. I'm doing Deeply Feeling Kids. And that is actually your last chapter of the book, is “Deeply Feeling Kids.” And these are kiddos who don't like to talk about their feelings. And so much of your approach is acknowledging feelings in high-tension moments. My middle guy is a deeply feeling kid. I know that you've said one of your children is as well. And when you have to parent two children at the same time, maybe there was an argument or some aggression between them, how do you balance two children who are so different in the moment? Because I think that hits on what you just said, right? There is no one perfect course, because parenting changes, but also if you have multiple kids, they are different.

BK: Totally. So, in terms of the “how do you” question, my honest answer is I don't know.

KO: [Laughing]

BK: That's truly—I feel like one of the most liberating things in my own parenting is I don't hold myself to Dr. Becky standards with my kids. I'm like, “She's not with my kids in this moment.” I do the best I can. And I know it feels hard because it is hard. Not because I'm not doing the right thing, it's just hard to raise different humans, right? It just is. So, what I think is the most empowering perspective for me to take is, I think we often focus on the less productive scenario. So, my kids are fighting and let's say I have one kid who when I say to them, "Oh, you're mad. I get you're mad, but I'm not going to let you hit your sister." They're like, "Okay." That kind of helps to some degree. And another kid if I say, "I'm not going to let you hit your brother," they're like, "I hate you." You know? And you're like, "Oh, whoa, okay."

So, I think too often we say to ourselves, "Well, what do I do in that moment?" And nobody, I'm sorry, I wouldn't believe anyone who would tell me, "Well, I know exactly what you can do in that moment." I’d be like, "Really? Are you a magician?” Because it's just like saying, what can you do when you're at a 10 out of 10 threat state anxiety overwhelm? I truly think you survive that moment as best as you can, hopefully without making it too much worse.

So if that was my kids, I'd probably just name what was true. "Whoa, I have a feeling nothing I say is going to end up feeling good for both of you. And that doesn't mean you're bad kids. I have two kids who are having a hard time with a mom who's having a little bit of hard time right now also. We're going to get through it, and we're going to talk about it again when we're calm."

I don't know. I’d probably say that. And do I think that my kids would say, "Wow, you're such a sturdy leader"? No, they definitely wouldn't. They would just keep, probably to some degree, doing what they did. And then I'd take a deep breath. And then where I think that focus needs to go, when those moments happen in your house—so maybe it's your kids fighting, maybe it's two kids who need different things at the same time from just you. Maybe it's the big tantrum. Maybe it's the "Oh, my kid is lying to my face"—that is what I consider a fire moment. There is an emotional fire in your house and if you had an actual fire in your house—and you don't have a fire extinguisher because in my metaphor, there's no fire extinguishers for feelings; we wouldn't want to extinguish them—the only thing I would do, it would be I just need to contain this fire. Let me just contain it.

Now, certainly there's a place, a really important place, to say, "I wonder how that fire started?" I need to better fireproof my home so when the same conditions happen again, I actually have a different outcome. But if you, Katie, saw me running around my house trying to fireproof while there's a fire, you'd be like, "Becky, yeah, you have the order of operations totally wrong. Well-intentioned, but no." And then on the other side, I think if you saw me contain the fire and then be like, "Okay, moving on," I feel like you'd be like, "Hey, you might want to look into that issue." Because if that happens again, nobody wins. So I think those two buckets are important. And I think as parents, we spend too much time in the bucket of fire containment, thinking we're going to do something magical.

And, actually, in the book, I think people will notice there's plenty of things, plenty of strategies I lay out for in the moment of a tantrum, in the moment of an argument, in the moment of your kid lying. But I promise you, that's not how things are going to change. Things change when you fireproof, when you get to the core of "I have a good kid who does something not so great." Why do good kids do that? What's really going on? What's underneath here? What situations can I practice? What stories can I tell so they know they're not a bad kid and I probably went through something similar. What mantras do they need? What other ways can they build emotion-regulation skills? Because if they had those skills, this situation wouldn't have happened in the first place.

So that, I think, is really core to my whole approach. It's really a skill-building approach. And none of us build skills in the heat of the moment. We just get through it, hopefully reflect after, and then do the work to actually make the change we want to make.

KO: Yes, and I think that work, as you lay out in Good Inside, is really about the “connection capital” that you talk about, right? Having those moments of connection with your kiddos, but then also this core principle that behavior isn’t identity. And that was such a lightbulb moment for me. It isn't who our kids are, it's a clue to what our kids need. Can you expand on this more for our listeners?

BK: Yes, so much. I think we've been fed a very behavioral model of child development, and I think we've been fed it—I'm just going to speak as an American—we've been fed it for so long that my visual for it is I feel like it moved off the fiction shelf and onto the nonfiction shelf, as if it was just this truth.

So, okay, my kid hits their sister. And I don't think anyone says in those approaches that means you have a bad kid. Nobody says that. Because if they did, you'd be like, "Whoa, that just sounds mean." So, no one says it, but it's underlying a lot of the approach—because your kid hit, you send them to your room or you punish them or you take away something random. Because my kid hit, I'm taking away TV and somehow I think that's going to help them not hit. I actually never understand how that works, but that's some part of the theory.

And then what happens in that moment is when I send my kid away, I kind of constrict my vision. It's like because my kid hit, he just became or she just became a bad kid, right? And they get put in the bad kid bucket. And I think we do the same thing to ourselves, outside of parenting too, right? Like, "Oh, I was late for this meeting. I'm the worst employee." Or, you know, “I didn't invite my friend to this dinner. How did I forget her? I'm so horrible." Or "I yelled at my kid. I'm messing up my kid forever. I'm the worst parent. If anyone really saw how I parent, they wouldn't believe it."

And so I think everyone listening to this, if you have a moment that you feel awful about, a behavior you did, probably the reason it can set you in such a spiral is because we almost unconsciously take that behavior and assume our identity from it. And feeling like a bad person is an uninhabitable place to be in, in your body, because it's actually non-conducive for survival. “If I'm bad, no one would attach to me, attachment's critical for evolution, yadda, yadda.” We actually can't stay there. It's awful. And so a big shift there that I think this book really puts out is: My behavior's something I do; behavior isn't who I am. And it's actually the whole idea of Good Inside. If I see my kid as good inside, then I have a gap and this gap is everything for activating curiosity. I have a good kid who hit their sister. I have a good kid who lied to my face. I have a good kid who won't ever join a birthday party, whatever it is. And same thing for ourselves, right? I'm a good parent who yelled.

And one thing I'll say about this is people say to me, and I think it's really interesting, "Doesn’t that let them off the hook?" Because then also there's "Okay, if I'm not punishing them, then what?" And that actually is the book, it's the “then what?” Like, “Okay, here's an alternative that isn't soft, that is actually more effective, and that actually teaches your kids the skills they need while preserving their feeling of goodness inside.” Everyone wins.

But the idea of Good Inside and that gap really allows us to look at our kid differently, and to look at ourselves differently. And the irony about letting yourself off the hook is if you want to let yourself off the hook, or you want to let your kids off the hook, punish them and shame them and blame them. Because when you do that, you literally create a freeze response. You can't change when you're frozen. If you want to leave your kid on the hook for change, or if you want to leave yourself on the hook, then actually seeing your internal goodness under your behavior is the foundation to be able to change. So, I always say, “We have to, kids and adults, we have to feel good inside before we can quote ‘act good outside.’"

KO: And I think that ties nicely into how you talk about guilt in Good Inside. I really appreciated it and particularly when you were speaking directly to parents of older children who are maybe thinking that it's too late for them to start enacting your principles. And you encourage them to acknowledge any feelings of guilt or shame and even say, "Feel free to move ahead in the book if you need to if you can't move past these feelings." Which I just, I really did love that moment. And I was just curious, how often is guilt something that you are going up against in your own parenting?

BK: Well, the way I think about guilt I think could be a little bit different from how people think about guilt. So maybe I'll explain how I think about it because that also would inform how it comes up in my own life. The way I think about guilt is guilt is a feeling we have when we notice ourselves acting in a way that wasn't in accordance with our values. So, there's a lot of good information there. Because, for example, I live in Manhattan and if I took a taxicab somewhere and maybe the driver went the wrong way and we're in traffic and I yell at the driver or something, I'm going to feel really guilty. Because I’m like, “I don't like to yell at anyone. I definitely don't like to yell at someone who's actually just trying to help me.” Right? So that guilt showed me my values. That's important to remember my values and to think, "Okay, well, what would I need to act more in accordance with my values?" That's guilt.

"My behavior's something I do; behavior isn't who I am. And it's actually the whole idea of Good Inside. If I see my kid as good inside, then I have a gap and this gap is everything for activating curiosity."

Here's something that's not guilt that most parents, and definitely most women, I think, feel is guilt: We often feel guilt when we're really taking on someone else's distress. Because we learned as kids, as people-pleasers, that the safest way to exist was kind of notice the feelings of everyone else around you, and kind of orient around being the person they needed you to be, which often meant suppressing your own needs and wants and playing along.

And so what we learned to do is we hear something, maybe it's a parent says, "You're going out with your friends? You're always with your friends and you don't even care about the family." Right? And I’m like, "I feel so guilty. Am I a bad daughter?" Or maybe it's, "Whoa, whoa. I'm going out with my friends. That actually is acting in accordance with my values. I want to see my friends. I also know I see my parents a lot. Oh, that's my mom's disappointment. She wishes I would stay home on Friday night because I used to before I was 15,” whatever it is. That's her distress, that's not my guilt at all.

And so I think that framework is really helpful. So how does that come up in my own life? Well, the moments that I would feel guilt that might not really be guilt is let’s say I yell at my kids. And yes, I yell at my kids. I yelled at my kids this morning. Like, it just happened. Right? And if I'm overwhelmed with guilt, maybe I hear my son say, "You're the worst mom in the world." Or "Everyone thinks you're like this amazing psychologist and you're really no better than anyone else." Or whatever he might say, right?

And I’d be like, "Oh, man." And then if I really ground myself, I'd be like, "You know what, Becky? It's not in accordance with my values to yell at him. And okay, I'm a good parent who was having a hard time. I can repair." But if I go into what's not guilt, "Oh, he thinks I'm a horrible mom, and I'm the worst, and he thinks I'm the worst." That guilt is stagnating. I can't repair from there again, because I feel like the bad person.

So, I actually think the first step for all of us with how guilt plays out in our life is just first check in: "Am I actually feeling guilt or am I feeling someone else's feeling for them?" And then after, to remind yourself guilt is really useful. I'm like, "Oh, hi guilt. You're letting me know what I care about. You're actually grounding me back in my goodness." And I think that helps us look at that feeling as an important teacher rather than something that sends us into a dark abyss.

KO: I like that reframework. I'm going to keep that in mind when I have to leave my house tomorrow night [laughing].

BK: I should also say, just for anyone listening with older kids, I think a core principle of Good Inside is it is never, ever too late to change the way you parent, to repair something that happened. That could have happened 10 years ago. You're like, "I feel so guilty about the way I handled my kid when they were zero to five and I was always yelling and punishing." Your kid could be 40 now. Calling up your 40-year-old, like, "Hey, I know this is going to sound out of the blue, but I just listened to this thing and it made me think about the way I showed up during your early years, which maybe you don't even consciously remember, but I just have to tell you I think I did a lot of things that definitely didn't feel good to you. And there's a lot of things I really wish I did differently. And I'm sure it's even affecting our relationship now in some ways. And look, what I just want to start with is letting you know that. And I'm thinking about it, and I love you." Oh my god, who wouldn't be so impacted by that?

And so if you would be impacted by your parents saying that to you, then you know just based on the math of how old your kid is relative to you, then that's going to have a huge impact on your kid and the direction of their wiring in their relationship with you after.

KO: Yeah, my cousins and I are trying to have some honest conversations with our moms because we are determined to be cycle-breakers, around anxiety in particular. And there are a lot of parents out there who want to do things differently than what they experienced with their parents or with their grandparents. And for parents going up against cycle-breaking, what is the number-one thing that you would tell them to keep in mind?

BK: The number-one thing I would say to keep in mind—whenever someone asks me for the number-one thing, I'm always like, "Can I give five?" But I know that's too much. I'm going to be a good answerer, I'm going to do as told right now. So, the number-one thing I would say is to almost zoom out from any one situation, and anyone who identifies as a cycle-breaker or having a cycle-breaker part of them who is saying, "Yeah, there's things I want to do differently," that really is an epic role, right? And if you think about what that means: A pattern you want to change has probably been a pattern in your family lineage for a long time. Because I'm assuming your parents, even if they did things you don't want to repeat, were doing the best they could with the resources they had. Which means things that didn't feel good for you probably were done to them, right? Doesn't excuse it. I just think it's probably true.

So, think about right now, all the generations before you, not just your parents. If you think about that and you think about now yourself, and this would be you, Katie, and you're looking at that history and that army of people, right? And you're putting out your hand and you're like, "No, this ..."—and I'm going to cry—"this stops with me. This stops with me and I'm going to shift the direction of things. Probably not a 180, but I'm going to shift it some.” And that is a huge weight. That I'm holding off that weight and carving out a new path, that's epic. That is so hard. And also, though, so bold and amazing because then you're saying, “The direction of the generations after me, they're going to be really impacted by the fact that I took this on for them. I hope they write me a lot of thank you notes or just like, ‘Thank you, Katie, you did a lot for us.’” Because it really is that big.

And so I think that would be like the number-one thing I would say is when it feels hard, when it feels like things didn't go the way you wanted, when it feels like you're back to some quote "old pattern," like, of course you are; that weight is real. And you are taking on something that is truly one of the most challenging things in the world.

KO: Yes, it is hard, but that's a good reminder for all of us that are battling that. So, as I've mentioned, I loved your audiobook. I really thought you did a great job with the narration and I feel like this will be the most natural medium for a lot of your followers because we're so used to your voice. So what was the recording process like for you? Did it feel different than being on camera?

BK: Oh my goodness. I was really anxious about the recording process. And also, honestly, I just got an email and they're like, "Oh, here's the dates you're recording." I was like, "What? That is a lot of hours.” You know? And I do have multiple hats at Good Inside. So obviously I create the content, I'm also CEO of this growing multimedia community and content platform. I write a lot, like, I do a lot of things. So, this is a lot of time, and plus having time with friends and family. I was like, "How am I going to fit this in?" I always get stressed by logistics.

"I am not doing all this and then going home and whipping up dinner and somehow attending every single one of my kids’ afterschool activities. I'm not, I just want to come out, I'm not doing that. There is no parent who's actually able to do all that."

So once it was in my calendar, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to do this. This is a long block of time.” And, honestly, it was fun. Because I wrote this book, by the time I recorded it with my voice, I'd written it a while back. And so I was like, "Oh, I wrote that? I like how that sounds." I was actually screenshotting things on the way to people on my team like, "We should bring back up this idea because some of this just fell to the bottom of the list." And then, honestly, the opportunity to say certain words in the exact way I'd want to say them. Because one of the big limitations with written word is that, especially with kids, but honestly in any human relationship, people quote “feel our tone and our pace and our intention way before they process our words.” And if the tone and intention and pace don't feel safe to them, the words never even come in. So, the opportunity then to say the things in the way I'd want them to be said to allow parents to have the tools they are looking to have, that just felt like such a gift and I didn't know that it would be both so fun and so meaningful until I was doing it.

KO: That's great. And we're all grateful that we get to listen to it. So, you know, you mentioned you're CEO of this growing movement, you wrote this book, you have kids of your own, you have this amazing community, you have your husband. I know you talked about your Thursday mornings, but what do you do to relax?

BK: What do I do outside of all this? Well, first of all, let me just say right off the bat, I have great adults helping me in everything that we named. So, no, I am not doing all this and then going home and whipping up dinner and somehow attending every single one of my kids’ afterschool activities. I'm not, I just want to come out, I'm not doing that. There is no parent who's actually able to do all that. So, I have an amazing babysitter, like amazing. I shout her out in acknowledgments. Jordan. She's just a critical caregiver in our lives. I feel like she's a caregiver to me. Yes, my husband and I have really renegotiated our responsibilities. And I used to be by far the default parent for everything. Because when I was in private practice, I could schedule my hours exactly when my kids were in school, and then it was like, "Oh, a kid is sick. Okay, well, I'm going to come home” or “I can do that." And now it's a lot more balanced. My parents live nearby and they're super helpful, even if it's like, "Yeah, I'll pick up your kids and bring them to this activity." Which any parent knows is like, "Ah, I have someone doing that. I don't have to worry about it."

My friend group has been remarkably supportive and amazing to me as I've made this transition. The carpools, the "Oh, yeah, you're traveling for this new part of your life, we're happy to have one of your kids for a sleepover." It just, you know, they say it takes a village. It's the thing I'm most excited about about our membership, although I know the limitations of virtual communities is, you know, the carpooling probably isn't happening. But I really do think it's true, we cannot parent while we feel alone. And there actually is a solve for that, there are things we can do to at least know that someone else sees us and is there with us in some way.

And then what are the other things I really make sure to do? Thursdays, just to be very concrete, are an interesting day. I come into work at 11 and I actually work pretty late because I started [late], but then I go right out to dinner with my husband or my husband and some friends. So that's a day I kind of bookend it front and end with a social plan. My husband and I are pretty good about making sure we get out one or two nights a week together with friends, but sans kids. And I'm very direct with my kids about that, you know, I'm like, "Me and daddy were husband and wife before we were even mom and dad and we love being parents, and we also really love being with each other. And it's really important, and you don't have to like it when we go out, and we know you're with someone who's safe. And, you know, we'll see you in the morning."

So, all of that matters. And I have to also say I have the most amazing business partner. My business partner, my co-founder, Erica, it's like the most fortuitous thing also. We came back together after going to grad school together. We were at each other's weddings. Our lives a little bit went different ways when we had kids, just in terms of things getting busy. And then when we reconnected, we talked for a little bit and right away I was like, "Oh my goodness, you are just such an amazing partner." She is such a rock in my business and the way that we stress about different things, the way that we can be there for each other. She's just absolutely critical.

KO: I'm glad that you're carving out those moments of sanity and that you have a group around you who helps you do that. I think that is critical.

BK: We really do. And let me just also say with that, there's weeks where I'm like, "This is great, things feel good." And then there's weeks where I'm panicking. I'm like, "Oh my god, I can't manage this, this is too much." My brain is so busy, I can't fall asleep when I need to sleep and then I wake up early because there's so much on my mind and I'm like, "What am I doing?” And those moments are so real. And I've had many of them and I know I will continue to have them as well. So, if you're listening and you have those, maybe what we can both do is just picture being in that together because at least we're not spiraling alone [laughs].

KO: [Laughs] Yes, Dr. Becky is like the rest of us, the same—

BK: Same.

KO: ... same moments of struggle. I won't say one thing because I don't want to limit you, but what do you hope listeners take away from Good Inside?

BK: A couple of things. I think there's something big-picture I hope they take away, and then I hope there's something a little more concrete. So, the big-picture thing that I hope people take away is that parenting really is the most important and hardest job and most continuous job in the world. And if you think about people you know who have jobs that you would consider important and hard, right? I'm going to take, like, a surgeon, okay, a brain surgeon. That's important, that's definitely hard. Surgeons get a lot of training and they get a lot of resources. And not only that, but even after they've been in the field for a while, any surgeon who I was considering seeing who was like, "Oh, by the way, I've done these extra trainings, and I also am in this amazing support group, and I'm learning this." I'd be like, "Oh, sign me up, great. You're a surgeon who still prioritizes investing in resources and support." Yes. And any surgeon who's like, "Oh, I don't know, I do something here and there and I just do surgery based on how I saw someone do it before." I'd be like, "Yeah, no, no, I'm not so comfortable."

So, to really think, “I have a job that's important and that's really, really hard. And I deserve resources and support because of that important and hard job I'm doing all the time.” And getting those resources and that support, that's a sign of everything that's right. That's a sign of being a good parent. And so I think that's a bigger message of Good Inside that I really hope people take.

In a little bit more of a concrete way, I think the single most important strategy to get good at as a parent, what I hope Good Inside leaves people with, is repair. The idea that if there's a moment in the story of you and your child that you know it felt bad to you, you know it felt bad to them. You yelled, you said something, it felt bad to you. Repair is the way we go back. We resurface that moment, we open up the file, and we actually end the chapter differently.

Our body is actually able to change memories based on how we process it after; it's why therapy's so effective. In some ways, therapy is like the process of changing memories by making them more coherent with someone, where you don't feel so alone and so in danger, and that's what we can do with our kids. So, the moment you're thinking about where you yelled, the moment where you've said some awful words, or you're thinking, "Oh, I did something that I feel even worse about." Okay, notice that, remind yourself you're a good parent who did that: "I'm a good parent who yelled." Rather than feeling like the yelling defined being a bad parent. And remember, it is never too late. Repair is the thing to get really good at. And if I'm going to get good at repair, that means I'm going to keep messing up, so permission to keep messing up. And let me just try to repair a little bit more often.

KO: Well, thank you so much for your time today.

BK: Well, that was such a thoughtful and comprehensive interview. So, thank you for your thoughtfulness. Thank you for this conversation. It was really fun and look forward to hopefully talking to you again soon.

KO: And listeners, you can get Good Inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy right now on Audible.