Kevin van Whye pulled from his love of '90s rom-coms to create his debut #ownvoices love story about a misfit on the fringes who catches the eye of the dreamboat it-boy at his school.
Note: Text has been edited and may not match audio exactly.
Michael Collina: I'm Audible Editor Michael Collina, and I'm so excited to be speaking with Kevin van Whye about his debut novel,. Thank you so much for joining me today, Kevin.
Kevin van Whye: Thank you for inviting me.
MC: Of course. So I absolutely loved this story. It's such an upbeat and heartwarming boy-meets-boy romance. And most importantly, it's also an own-voices story. And I will fully admit that I basically listened to the entirety of it in one sitting because I couldn't put it down once I started.
KVW: I'm so glad to hear that. And I really love what the narrator did with the story, so it all came together…
MC: Yeah, Vikas [Adam], he's fantastic, and he added another element to the story.
KVW: Yeah, he came to life. It was such a weird experience the first time I heard it, because it was all on my screen, all in my head, and then all of a sudden it was real.
MC: Definitely. For those who don't know, Date Me, Bryson Keller features a dare, a secret relationship, and ultimately now, one of my newest favorite couples. To set up the premise a little bit more, after expressing a disbelief in love and relationships, Bryson Keller, the local it-boy of Fairvale Academy, is dared to date someone new each week. But the catch is that he's not allowed to be the person to ask. It always goes to the first girl who asks him out on Monday morning. But all of that changes that last week when our other hero, Kai Anderson, asks him out. And then the entire game changes.
KVW: I wanted it to really feel like a '90s movie because I'm a '90s kid and that's what I grew up watching, every '90s rom-com. I’m so glad that rom-coms are making a big comeback this year. I'm so excited.
You being queer doesn't make you less than anyone else. There is no normal when you stop believing that straight is normal.
MC: I definitely agree. This feels just like one of those '90s rom-coms, which, who doesn't love them?
KVW: It's a side of ridiculousness that's probably never going to happen in real life, but it's fun to imagine if it would.
MC: Exactly. It's escapism at its finest. And this is an own-voices story. You add that extra element. It's an LGBTQIA+ story, which is something that those '90s rom-coms didn't have, so it's taking that medium and that mode of storytelling and reinventing it.
KVW: That was the thing that was always lacking when I watched those rom-coms. As much as I loved them, they never really showed people like me. They were always white and heterosexual. So I'm glad that now the world is ready for such diverse stories. And mine is one of many that are coming out, so it’s exciting to be a part of that movement.
MC: Definitely. And this is also your debut novel.
KVW: Yes. I can't believe it actually happened.
MC: I'm so glad it did, but I have to ask, how does it feel to finally have it out in the world?
KVW: If you'd asked me a couple of months ago, my answer would probably be different, but given everything that's going on in the world, it's a very strange experience. There's a lot of excitement, but there's also anxiety because I feel like it came out and there's really so much going on. Did it get the attention it needed? It’s weird to find the joy in that moment, but I'm happy and proud of what I put out. And I'm glad that readers are finding it and have been messaging me that it's resonated with them, so that makes it all worth it. But being a debut author during a global pandemic is really an experience.
MC: I can only imagine. Can you share a little bit about your experience writing Date Me, Bryson Keller? Did you write it with audio in mind, or is that something that came after the fact?
KVW: It came after the fact. I'm a film student, so that played a part in the book. I envisioned it as a movie. To me, I was writing a '90s rom-com and I just translated it into a book, and I think that resonated with people. And then of course, Random House came through and supported me with an audiobook, which was exciting. And then what's even more exciting, when I got to listen to the potential narrators and find the perfect match, it was just a really exciting experience.
MC: Yeah, it definitely sounds like it. Let's talk about the narrator, Vikas Adam. I think he was perfectly cast for this story. He's a fantastic performer on his own, and he also adds an extra own-voices layer to the story as another queer person of color himself.
KVW: Yes, that was important to me. Right off the bat, I was glad that... Actually, what happened was, my audiobook producer sent me a list of potential narrators, and he recommended Vikas. And he said he doesn't usually, but having read the book and knowing the narrator, that he would be a perfect match. And when I first heard his audition, I was like, "Yeah, that's Kai, that's who I want to tell the story." So it was a perfect blend of everything.
MC: It definitely sounded like it. Like I said, it's that extra second element that adds another layer of own voices and really makes this story unique and that much more profound. We're seeing such an influx of own-voices stories, rightfully so, right now. But I feel like a lot of times you don't also get that extra element of an own-voices performer, so it feels so much more special and so much more important.
KVW: I was glad that my publisher supported that because that is an important movement. We've spent, I don't know how many years, watching non-own-voices actors who aren't gay play gay characters and win Oscars for them. And it's like, "But there are actual gay actors out there that could play those roles." And I think that it’s also [true] with audiobooks, that there are queer narrators out there who could read queer stories, but they've never been given the chance. So I'm glad that that was on my side, and we got an amazing own-voices story on both fronts.
MC: Definitely. What was it that inspired you to write this story? I know in your author's note you mentioned that so much of your personal life and your personal lived experiences made their way into the story. I'm curious, how many bits and pieces made it in?
KVW: Surprisingly, a lot. The funny thing is, I attended a prep academy for, I think it was six months of my life, and I was surrounded by these extremely wealthy people. And it's such an interesting dynamic. I know a lot of people say that they didn't really get why Kai would feel othered, [because] rich people in an academy are really friendly. They know your name, they show an interest, [but] I remember one memory that comes to mind where a girl was having her sweet 16, and she came with invitations and we'd hung out and stuff, but she invited a select few. Those were the people that were the in crowd.
I was able to tap into my lived experience because, in a sense, that was what I went through as a teen.
So even though they're friendly on the surface, you weren't really a part of it. And that's what Kai goes through. He's never really been a part of it because his class is different, his race is different, his sexuality is different, so he doesn't fit in. He was always invited as the plus one, as the extra. But this year, thanks to his lab partner, he was invited by name. And that's an important moment for Kai, because in a sea of richness, he was the odd one out.
I thought a day of this nature would only make sense in that environment, because in a public school I don't think it would matter that much. But rich people are weird, and I think it invited the potential for this story to unfold.
MC: That's really interesting. Another layer that I wouldn't have necessarily considered. I was a public-school student myself. It's just a different world.
KVW: The reason I went to that prep school was, I used to go to a convent school, with the nuns and the Mass and the Catholicism, and it was like—let's just say that it was living hell. So my parents were like, there was only one other option. We lived in a really small town at the time and there was really only one other option, and it was that school. So thanks to borrowing from family and stuff, I got to attend for like six months, but then they realized, "This is just not working." So we moved back. And I went back to my public school where I was comfortable and happy.
MC: Which is the important thing at the end of the day.
KVW: Yeah.
MC: So I know you mentioned that you're not the first person to write this kind of story. We've already touched on a little bit that own voices in queer stories are having such a huge moment right now, and that's where the spotlight is shining at the moment. But were there any writers in particular or any stories that inspired you and this story?
KVW: Going back, I think the first time I ever really saw myself in a story, and what put me on the path of telling own-voices stories was Proxy by Alex London. I remember reading that story—and it came in that wave of dystopia, where it was the same story over and over again. But this one was different because it was a story of a queer teen being in this save-the-world adventure. It was the first time I read a story and was like, "Huh, that's me."
So that was the start of the journey of own voices. But when it came to this specific book, I must say that Love, Simon, the film, and obviously the book, showed that these stories can make it, and they are marketable. There are readers out there for it. So I thought, "Why not shoot my shot and tell an own-voices story?" And, of course, we owe it all to Jenny Han and To All the Boys [I’ve Loved Before] for reigniting the wave of rom-coms for teens. So it's a really exciting time to write rom-coms.
MC: Definitely. Rom-coms, queer literature, it's all so in the moment and so relevant. And it's such a good time too, because I feel like queer teens, especially, need to see themselves in this type of story. They want to see, and I want to see, and I'm sure so many other people want to see, more characters like this coming into a more mainstream narrative and becoming more commercial, because there are so many queer teens out there. This is a story that, personally, I would have loved to have when I was in high school.
KVW: Yeah. It was that. I wanted to give that, "Yes, there will be trials and tribulations, but there will be a happy-ending story." And I mean, Bryson Keller's practically Prince Charming. And how many times can you get, in real life, to meet Prince Charming? So I wanted that form of escapism for closeted teens and queer teens, that, "You know, in this moment, we can romance Prince Charming."
MC: I love it. Date Me, Bryson Keller is such a feel-good escapist piece of fiction, but like we're talking about right now, it doesn't shy away from the real issues of coming out and facing the world as a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. So while there's so much fun and sweetness throughout, there's also a lot of real-talk moments that really resonated with me and I'm sure, and hopeful, will resonate with a lot of queer teens. So if there's one thing that you would want a young queer person listening to the story to take away, what do you think it would be?
KVW: I think the overall message, because the final line in the book is, "Gay means happy too, you know." We’re so wrapped up in the pain of being queer and not being accepted, for some of us, that it takes away from the fact that we actually deserve to be happy, we deserve happy endings. It doesn't have to be a romantic relationship to be a happy ending, but just that you deserve to be happy in whatever you do. You being queer doesn't make you less than anyone else. There is no normal when you stop believing that straight is normal. And I think that was what I wanted to show with this book. Yes, it may be a bit rough for a lot of us on this journey, but hopefully we can be happy because we deserve to be.
MC: And that's such a powerful message too. I also just wanted to ask, since this story is about coming out, yes, but it's also about finding love in unexpected places, it's about fake relationships turned real, and just so many other romantic rom-com tropes that we love: Are there any romantic tropes that you enjoy hearing and stories that felt like you needed to include in this one?
KVW: Definitely the fake romance is one of my ultimate favorite tropes. I also like… there's a scene where, it's called "the beautiful dreamer" trope, it's where the person you like falls asleep on your shoulder and you look over and you're like, "Wow, you're beautiful." It was fun to include that moment in the book, where they're watching the movie, and Bryson falls asleep, and Kai looks over his shoulder and realizes, "Wow, you're really good-looking." And there's that spoon moment where you're like, "Ah," as the reader or the watcher. That was fun. One moment I'm sad I didn't include but I hope to include in a future book is, "Oh no, there's only one bed." I love that trope. So hopefully in the future.
MC: Yeah. You’ll have to include that in the next one, for sure.
KVW: Yeah. Like, "Oh, what are we going to do? There's only one bed."
MC: “Oh no. What next?” And one of the things I love about all of these rom-com tropes is they are so fun, they're so lighthearted, but at the same time, they're pivotal moments for the characters themselves.
KVW: I think that's the fun about tropes. Because yes, they're all fun and they're light, but they also serve as important touchstones for readers, because, like with that beautiful dreamer trope where you look at the person sleeping, it's a moment for a lot of internal monologue for Kai to try and work out what he's feeling for Bryson in that moment. While, yes, it gives you the swoons on the page, it also allows me as the writer to explore what exactly Kai was feeling. And I think that's the power of tropes and why people love them, because when they're done and they work well, they really make a story sing.
MC: Definitely. I want to talk about Bryson Keller a little bit more, because he's like the perfect popular it-boy. I think he's probably one of those characters that every queer teen can look to and be like, "Wow, I wish I had someone like that." So what went into crafting this character?
KVW: I actually owe a huge debt to my editor, Chelsea Eberly, at Random House. She came in with the right questions to get me to push Bryson Keller to be who he was. I often say that the Bryson Keller that was in my first draft and the one that's in the final draft are worlds apart. And that's because she wanted Bryson to feel as real and developed as Kai, even though it's not his story.
The attention to detail on that front helped with Bryson Keller, to make him the dreamboat. I remember when I sat down to write Bryson Keller, I wanted a queer Peter [Kavinsky] from To All the Boys. I wanted that for the queer community, and for me as a teen. And I think I've gotten pretty close with Bryson Keller, to making him my own dream.
MC: I think you definitely did, because I feel like he's probably my own dream too.
KVW: Yeah. Team Kevin, go for it.
MC: ...You hinted that Kai was a lot of your personal experiences wrapped up into this character. So I totally understand why he would be your favorite and really resonated with you. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
KVW: …I think we're getting to a stage in representation where so many queer people are now telling their stories, so we're getting a broader scope of it, and that's really important because there are so many different intersectional identities in the queer community. And for so long, we never got to see that.
That was what was important to me for Kai and why it resonated so much.I was able to tap into my lived experience because, in a sense, that was what I went through as a teen. So it was easy to translate that into this fictional world. Granted Kai is from the States, I've never been, so it was easy to find moments where that could translate into his world.
MC: Yeah, and since the story does take place in the States, how was writing that, coming from South Africa yourself?
KVW: Again, thank you to my editor, I keep saying. I remember in one of our first conversations, I was like, "I tried my best with the American stuff, but I'll definitely need your insight on that." And thankfully we got a sensitivity reader who's a queer American, so that also helped get the details right. Just to make sure that it felt authentic to an American teen. But my second book is set in South Africa, that's also exciting.
MC: So it'll feel a little bit more at home for you?
KVW: Yeah.
MC: It's so exciting to get these different perspectives. Like, yes, we got the American story first, and now we're going to get that second one that feels more home to you and more natural to you. I'm excited to see what you have next for us.
KVW: It's been fun exploring South Africa and trying to explain it to people who have never been here. So that's been a fun experience as a writer.
MC: Is there anything more you can share about that yet? Or is it still under wraps for now?
KVW: No, it was announced a few weeks back. Basically, the story started with the movie The Wedding Date, starring Debra Messing, where she's invited to her sister's wedding and she hires a fake boyfriend, and then romance ensues. So I was like, "What if we take that and made it queer and teen?" So a teen gets invited to a destination wedding by his wealthy aunt, and unfortunately his mom can't go, so his best friend steps in. And his best friend just happens to be the guy he has a crush on, so romance and family nonsense ensue.
MC: I cannot wait, that sounds so fantastic. And we get another amazing fake relationship in there, so there's so much to look forward to.
KVW: With Bryson Keller, it was first love, whereas with this one, the main character has already been in a relationship, so he's moved on. So it's like, though it's not the big wow of first love, it's another aspect of it. So that's been a fun relationship to explore. And I'm also a fan of friends to lovers, so yay tropes.
MC: I love the tropes. They, like we were saying, make the story just feel that much more rich, more relatable, and they add that extra layer. There's so much you can do with tropes and they’re so much fun.
KVW: Yeah. I'm so glad that, as we've said, that rom-coms are making a comeback with all the tropes under the sun. Bring them all on.
MC: I agree. It is so long overdue for these stories and these tropes to make their reemergence and have their time.
KVW: And especially making them queer, which is something a few years ago we couldn't possibly imagine. And now we're pushing forward. I'm so glad there's so many writers out there willing to tell their stories.
MC: I couldn't agree more. And thank you so much for telling your story and giving us this amazing lesson.
KVW: Thank you. It's been a weird experience. Writing is just you and your computer, you're isolated, and having the book out and having readers actually read what you've written is such a… I don't actually know how to describe that experience. It's taking some time to get used to, but it's exciting… Actually, I today woke up to a message from a reader who said… there's one scene in the book where Kai's mother finds the strip of photos with him and Bryson, and that leads to that big confrontation.
[The reader] says he actually teared up because it reminded him so much of his own experience. I think that's the amazing thing of having the story out there, having readers tell me that what I've written resonates with them. And having the story described as wish fulfillment, because for so many queer teens, this probably will never happen. Having this chance to escape into a world where anything is possible, it's exciting to hear that I gave them that, because Bryson Keller is wish fulfillment, escape, and where everyone gets to date the dream guy in high school.
MC: I love it. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us and talking about your debut, Date Me, Bryson Keller.
KVW: Thank you so much for having me.
MC: Of course, it's been my pleasure. And listeners, thank you so much for joining in and listening to this conversation with Kevin. Date Me, Bryson Keller is available now, and if you haven't picked it up yet, you really need to. And if this isn’t reason enough, there's so much good stuff in there.
