On the Mad in America podcast this week, we explore the importance of raising awareness of psychological approaches that challenge mainstream perspectives. Joining us today are three people who are practising clinical psychologists and who have written for Mad in America.

Zenobia Morrill is a critical-liberation psychologist and psychology professor who received her doctorate from the University of Massachusetts, Boston. Her research interests include critical and liberation psychology, the psychotherapy process, and wider conceptual and ethical issues in psychology and psychiatry.

José Giovanni Luiggi-Hernández is a clinical psychologist in private practice, a qualitative researcher at the University of Pittsburgh, a writer for Mad in America and part of the recently launched Mad in Puerto Rico website. His interests include understanding the lived experiences of colonized people using phenomenological, psychoanalytic, and decolonial frameworks, LGBTQ issues and psychotherapy for physical health concerns.

Also joining us is Mad in America’s lead research news editor, Justin Karter. A graduate in both psychology and journalism, Justin’s research and writing span topics in the philosophy of psychology, critical psychology, MAD studies, cross-cultural psychology, qualitative methods, and theories of counselling and psychotherapy.

In this conversation, we discuss the possibilities opened up by adopting a critical mindset, identify some of the barriers to working in such a way, and share some key resources to help aspiring psychologists explore alternative approaches.

Find a full transcript of this interview here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/08/how-to-be-a-critical-psychologist-without-losing-your-soul/

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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Welcome to MIA Radio. Today, we are pleased to have as our guest Jaakko Seikkula. Jaakko is a psychologist who helped develop the Open Dialogue practice at Keropudas Hospital in Tornio, Finland, in the 1990s, and he is the person who has conducted the research that told of remarkable longer-term outcomes with this form of care.

For the past 15 years, he has developed and led training programs that have seen Open Dialogue practices adopted in 40 countries. He recently published a book titled, Why Dialogue Does Cure.

In this interview, we discuss how Open Dialogue came to be, the research that shows its positive outcomes, how psychiatry has failed to learn from Open Dialogue practice and more.

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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Jørgen Kjønø, whose stage name is Dex Carrington, is a Norwegian-American stand-up comedian based in Oslo, Norway. He is also an actor, host of the Truth Train podcast, and former travel show host who gained international recognition as the host of Dexpedition, which aired on MTV in over 30 countries.

He joins us on the Mad In America podcast to talk about his experience with Lyrica and Zyprexa, including a five-and-a-half-year taper after 10 years on the drugs.

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Find a full transcript of the interview here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/07/horror-psychiatric-drug-withdrawal-dex-carrington/

Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Stijn Vanheule is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst, and professor of psychology at Ghent University. Trained in the Lacanian tradition, he has written widely on the structure of psychosis, the limits of psychiatric diagnosis, and the importance of attending to the subjective logic of mental distress.

His books include The Subject of Psychosis: A Lacanian Perspective, Diagnosis and the DSM: A Critical Review, and most recently, Why Psychosis is Not So Crazy, which offers a reorientation of how clinicians, families, and broader society might understand and engage with psychotic experience.

Drawing on psychoanalytic theory, case studies, and contemporary cultural examples, Vanheule treats hallucinations and delusions not as meaningless symptoms but as creative responses to existential disruptions. He emphasizes the importance of listening—clinically and socially—not for coherence imposed from the outside, but for the structure and logic within a person’s seemingly incoherent world. His approach challenges dominant psychiatric models that prioritize symptom suppression, calling instead for a therapeutic attitude grounded in humility and collaboration.

In this interview, Vanheule discusses the role of hallucinations in restoring a shattered sense of meaning, the necessity of admitting one’s limitations as a clinician, and the importance of everyday practices—gardening, conversation, shared meals—in building connections that can anchor recovery. Using a depathologizing lens, he discusses that to overwhelming existential challenges that make us all vulnerable, psychosis might not be a crazy reaction after all.

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Find a full transcript of the interview here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/06/why-psychosis-is-not-so-crazy-a-conversation-with-stijn-vanheule/

Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Nelson Lee is a therapist and mental skills coach with a master's degree in clinical mental health counseling and an MBA. In 2024, he attempted to get off antidepressants that he'd been on for 15 years. This led to significant long-term medication withdrawal that Nelson is still navigating at the time of this interview.

As a therapist, Nelson specializes in helping clients transform their relationships with themselves and others and overcome anxiety and OCD. He loves helping people rise above their challenges and proactively maintain long-term healing and growth. He believes it's never too late or too early to improve your mental health.

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Find a full transcript of the interview here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/06/a-therapist-navigating-antidepressant-withdrawal-nelson-lee/

Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Paulo del Vecchio is a person in long-term recovery from mental health and addictions, who has been a leader in the peer recovery movement for 40 years. He recently completed a 30-year career at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, where he served in multiple roles including the director of the Center for Mental Health Services and the founding director of the Office of Recovery.

Paolo is now an independent advocate, working to advance recovery-oriented policies and practices on national and international levels.

In this interview, he speaks with Mad in America’s Leah Harris about his roots as a housing justice activist to his decades of public service at SAMHSA, what worries him most about mental health in today’s America, and where he sees hope in the recovery movement that he helped create.

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A full transcript of this interview can be found here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/06/progress-only-occurs-when-people-make-demands-paolo-del-vecchio/

Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Laurence Kirmayer is one of the most influential figures in cultural psychiatry today. A psychiatrist, researcher, and theorist, he serves as James McGill Professor and Director of the Division of Social and Transcultural Psychiatry at McGill University and Editor-in-Chief of Transcultural Psychiatry. Across decades of work bridging anthropology, psychiatry, and cognitive science, Kirmayer has advanced a complex view of mental health as inseparable from culture, history, language, and political power.

His research ranges from Indigenous youth resilience and narrative medicine to the diagnostic metaphors—such as “chemical imbalance” or “trauma”—that reshape identity and possibility. He has helped pioneer integrative approaches that unite phenomenology and neuroscience, including a biopsychosocial model grounded in enactive and embodied cognition, as well as a person-centered, ecosocial framework for understanding suffering beyond reductive biological paradigms. His critiques extend to how psychiatric categories reflect colonial histories and obscure social causes, as well as how attempts to localize mental health interventions may still impose Western norms.

Kirmayer’s scholarship on narrative, metaphor, and cultural psychiatry aligns with ongoing efforts by Indigenous psychologists and anthropologists to reframe trauma and healing through culturally grounded practices, as reflected in recent collaborative work calling for a decolonial turn in psychology. Drawing on 4E cognitive science, he proposes that metaphors are not simply rhetorical tools but embodied and enacted processes embedded in local social worlds. These shape how people experience distress and how clinicians make sense of it.

His forthcoming book, Healing and the Invention of Metaphor: Toward a Poetics of Illness Experience (Cambridge University Press, July 2025), extends these themes by exploring how metaphor, narrative, and imagination shape suffering and healing across cultures, while offering a critical account of the symbolic and political frameworks embedded in contemporary psychiatric and biomedical practice.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Kirmayer explores the politics of diagnostic language, the structural roots of suffering, and the poetic potential of metaphor to disrupt conformity and open new avenues for healing. From the medicalization of culturally normative expressions of distress to the reification of trauma, Kirmayer shows how dominant frameworks can limit imagination, flatten complexity, and displace political realities with individualized solutions. He calls for a psychiatry that listens not only to symptoms but to the metaphors and metaphysics that animate people’s lives.

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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org

Hello, my name is Bob Whitaker, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Kermit Cole. We'll be speaking about a philosophical enterprise that Kermit is now deeply engaged in. That is, broadly speaking, how humor can help in creating a shared experience that is helpful to the healing process. Kermit, in his experiences of being with people in psychotic states, has seen humor as a moment when a connection can be made. In many ways, this project is bringing Kermit back full circle to his work as a film director, early in his professional career.

After dropping out of Oberlin College, he joined a mime troupe that toured the U.S. as well as Italy and Greece, inspired by his interest in humor as well as how connection arises in the spaces between words. One of his first films was a short titled Before Comedy, which is a film performed entirely without words. Another, which he directed in 1994 was titled Living Proof: HIV and the Pursuit of Happiness.

I met Kermit shortly after I published my book Mad in America in 2002. He was working at that time as a Residence Director of what might be called a halfway house in Cambridge called Wellmet. This was for people who had been discharged from or who were avoiding stays in psychiatric hospitals. The house was modeled to a degree after the Soteria Project.

Then in 2012 after I published Anatomy of an Epidemic, Kermit, Louisa Putnam and I transformed my blog site into a web magazine, also called Mad in America. Kermit was the founding editor of the site, and for the first few years, he was something of a one-man band, posting science reviews, blogs and personal stories at a feverish pace. After retiring from that position, he trained in open dialog therapy, and Louisa and Kermit practiced dialogically inspired therapy with clients in New Mexico. Both Louisa and Kermit are Mad in America Board Members.

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A full transcript of this interview can be found here: https://www.madinamerica.com/2025/05/kermit-cole-dialogical-therapy-and-quantum-theory-walk-into-a-bar/

Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/

To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850

© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org