As we wrap up 2025, we are featuring some of our most important conversations, including this conversation about IQ, intelligence, and intelligence assessment. Emily Kircher-Morris welcomes Dr. Jack Naglieri, an emeritus professor at George Mason University and senior research scientist at the Devereux Center for Resilient Children. Dr. Naglieri is renowned for his work in intelligence testing and the development of the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test.

In this sprawling conversation, Emily and Jack talk about his insights on the evolution and misconceptions surrounding intelligence assessment. They discuss the history of intelligence testing, and the limitations and biases inherent in traditional methods. Dr. Naglieri describes the experiences that led him to question the validity of verbal-based intelligence tests, and ultimately inspired his development of nonverbal assessment tools. They discuss the PASS theory of intelligence, and how it forms the foundation of the Cognitive Assessment System (CAS), a tool designed to measure these processes and offer a nuanced profile of an individual's cognitive strengths and weaknesses.

You can download a free copy of the PASS Theory of Intelligence and the CAS2.

Dr. Jack A. Naglieri, Ph.D., is Emeritus Professor at George Mason University and Senior Research Scientist at the Devereux Center for Resilient Children. His main interest is the development of psychological and educational tests and the implications these approaches have for accurate and equitable assessment.

He has published about 25 books, 50 tests and rating scales, and approximately 300 research papers. Jack is the author of tests used for identification of gifted students, including the Naglieri Nonverbal Ability Test. He partnered with Dina Brulles and Kim Lansdowne to coauthor the Naglieri Tests of General Ability Verbal, Quantitative and Nonverbal, and the book, Understanding and Using the Naglieri General Ability Tests: A Call to Equity in Gifted Education (Brulles, Lansdowne & Naglieri, 2022).

Dr. Naglieri has received many awards for his extensive research program that includes scholarly research, books, and psychological tests with an emphasis on uniting sound theory with equitable scientific practice.

BACKGROUND READING

PASS Theory of Intelligence and the CAS2, Jack's website, The Naglieri General Ability Tests

If you'd like members of your organization, school district, or company to know more about the subjects discussed on our podcast, Emily Kircher-Morris provides keynote addresses, workshops, and training sessions worldwide, in-person or virtually. You can choose from a list of established presentations, or work with Emily to develop a custom talk to fit your unique situation. To learn more, visit our website.

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.

Emily Kircher-Morris and Dr. William Dodson have a conversation about the complexities of ADHD, in which they discuss emotional dysregulation, Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria (RSD), and social anxiety. They talk about how RSD manifests in ADHDers, and how we can distinguish it from social anxiety. They also explore the impact of childhood experiences, the vital role of relationships, and the need for updated diagnostic criteria. This conversation was taken from a two-part series earlier in 2025.

TAKEAWAYS

• Emotional dysregulation is often overlooked in ADHD diagnoses.

• RSD is a specific condition affecting many with ADHD; the pain can be both emotional and physical, leading to significant life impairments.

• Social anxiety is anticipatory, while rejection sensitivity is reactive; they can coexist but are distinct.

• Childhood experiences can exacerbate RSD but are not the sole cause.

• Medication, alongside sleep, nutrition, structure, and routine, plays a vital role in emotional regulation.

• Mood disorders can manifest independently of external events, and a significant percentage of individuals with ADHD have coexisting psychiatric diagnoses.

• Understanding RSD is essential for clinicians, and psychoeducation is key to self-advocacy.

Here's the research project Emily mentions in her closing thoughts.

Dr. Bill Dodson is a board-certified adult psychiatrist who has specialized in adults with Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder for the last 27 years.

In recognition of his clinical contributions to the field of ADHD he was named a Life Fellow of the APA in 2012. He was the 2006 recipient of the national Maxwell J. Schleifer Award for Distinguished Service to Persons with Disabilities.

His contributions to the field of ADHD include:

• The only currently available methodology for the fine-tuning of ADHD medications.

• The concept of Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria and its treatment with medications.

• The first non-behavioral theory of what ADHD is and how it can be treated successfully with an emphasis on what goes right rather than what goes wrong.

BACKGROUND READING

Bill Dodson's website, Dr Dodson's contributions to ADDitude magazine

Emily Kircher-Morris is joined by Tim Villegas, the Director of Communications at the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education (MCIE) and the founder and host of the Think Inclusive Podcast, to discuss the concept of inclusion in education. The idea is to create inclusive environments for all students, and Tim shares his personal journey toward that goal, and insights on how to create such an environment. They talk about the importance of community, equity, and meaningful contributions in schools, as well as the challenges faced in inclusive classrooms.

TAKEAWAYS

• Inclusion is a powerful word that means different things to different people.

• School should be a place where everyone belongs, regardless of their needs.

• Being fair means providing everyone with what they need, not just the same thing.

• Community plays a crucial role in fostering inclusion in schools.

• Inclusion is not just about placing students in general education settings; it's about creating supportive environments.

• Schools should aim to be more like real life, accommodating all learners.

For information about the variety of courses for teachers, parents, and mental health professionals through the Neurodiversity University, check the info page on our website.

Tim Villegas is the Director of Communications at the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education (MCIE) and the founder and host of the Think Inclusive Podcast, a long-running show dedicated to building bridges between families, educators, and advocates in the disability and inclusion space. With a background as a special education teacher and instructional coach, Tim brings over a decade of classroom experience to his work in advancing equity and inclusive practices in schools.

Through his leadership at MCIE and his widely respected podcast, Tim has become a national voice for inclusive education—amplifying the stories, research, and strategies that help create learning environments where all students belong. His work focuses on shifting mindsets, promoting systemic change, and centering the lived experiences of students with disabilities and their families.

BACKGROUND READING

Tim's links and info

If you'd like members of your organization, school district, or company to know more about the subjects discussed on our podcast, Emily Kircher-Morris provides keynote addresses, workshops, and training sessions worldwide, in-person or virtually. You can choose from a list of established presentations, or work with Emily to develop a custom talk to fit your unique situation. To learn more, visit our website.

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.

Today, Emily Kircher-Morris talks with Carla Ciccone, a Toronto-based writer and author of the book Nowhere Girl, about her experiences with ADHD, identity, and motherhood. Carla talks about dealing with her late diagnosis of ADHD, and the overall impact of societal expectations on women. They talk about the difficulties of navigating life with undiagnosed ADHD, how it increases the challenges of parenting, and the importance of self-awareness and therapy in managing ADHD symptoms.

TAKEAWAYS

• When you realize you've had ADHD all along, allow yourself grief and grace.

• Therapy can be a critical tool for understanding and managing ADHD as an adult.

• Motherhood can look completely different through the lens of ADHD.

For information about the variety of courses for teachers, parents, and mental health professionals through the Neurodiversity University, check the info page on our website.

Carla Ciccone is a Toronto-based writer whose work spans memoir, cultural commentary, and reported nonfiction. She is the author of Nowhere Girl, a powerful debut that blends personal narrative with investigative reporting to explore her experience of living with undiagnosed ADHD. Through sharp insight and humor, Carla sheds light on the challenges of late diagnosis and the complexities of navigating neurodivergence in a world that often overlooks it.

In addition to her book, Carla's writing has appeared in a range of publications, where she explores topics related to identity, mental health, and gender. With Nowhere Girl, she offers a resonant, deeply personal account that has sparked conversations about how ADHD—especially in women—can remain hidden for years.

BACKGROUND READING

Carla on Instagram, Carla's website, Nowhere Girl: Random House, Amazon

If you'd like members of your organization, school district, or company to know more about the subjects discussed on our podcast, Emily Kircher-Morris provides keynote addresses, workshops, and training sessions worldwide, in-person or virtually. You can choose from a list of established presentations, or work with Emily to develop a custom talk to fit your unique situation. To learn more, visit our website.

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.

Cookie-cutter curriculum can be Kryptonite to a gifted kid, and can often spark a decline into a place where underachievement becomes the norm. Dr. Jim Delisle helps us probe the world of underachievement, and suggests ways to help people of various underachiever profiles break their chains.

Our hearts are heavy with Jim's recent passing. Jim Delisle was a giant in the field of giftedness and neurodiversity, and one of its fiercest advocates. He was a friend, an important collaborator, and his contributions left an indelible mark on our podcast and the lives of our team. More than that, he literally changed the world for countless neurodivergent people. Our thoughts are with Jim's family - his wife, Deb, son Matthew and daughter-in-law Jennifer, and grandson, Wyatt.

Thank you, Jim, for being such an important part of our story.

James Delisle, PhD, was a professor of education for 25 years at Kent State University (Ohio), where he was selected by faculty and students as a Distinguished Professor, the University's most prestigious teaching award.

Jim worked on behalf of gifted children and teens for nearly four decades. He was the author of hundreds of articles and 17 books that have been published in multiple languages, and consulted with schools worldwide in an effort to increase awareness of the needs of gifted children and adults. Jim also worked part time with highly gifted 9th and 10th graders at the Scholars' Academy in Conway, South Carolina.

Emily Kircher-Morris welcomes Sumit and Viraj Dhanda, a father-son duo who are working to update and rethink norms around communication, intelligence, and inclusion. Viraj is a nonspeaking autistic student who was diagnosed with autism and apraxia as a young child. Viraj and his father, Sumit, talk about their journey navigating the challenges and misconceptions surrounding non-verbal communication, the impact of apraxia, and the importance of presuming competence. Viraj shares his personal experiences through a communication tool, and tells the story of when he and his father discovered his unique condition.

TAKEAWAYS

• Many non-speakers have apraxia of speech.

• Potential can be missed when you fail to presume competence in non-speaking people.

• Typing can be a transformative communication tool for non-speakers.

• Misconceptions about non-verbal communication can be damaging.

• Advocacy and persistence can lead to breakthroughs in education.

• Parents should explore all communication options for their children.

• Non-speaking people can and do have rich, complex thoughts.

• Education systems should rethink expectations for non-speakers.

• Emerging technologies offer hope for non-speaking people.

Viraj and Sumit Dhanda are a father-son duo reshaping the conversation around communication, intelligence, and inclusion. Viraj, a nonspeaking autistic student admitted to MIT's Class of 2029, was diagnosed with autism and apraxia in early childhood. Through typing, he broke through profound communication barriers and revealed extraordinary strengths in mathematics, writing, and critical thinking. His poetry and essays offer rare insight into the inner world of nonspeaking autistics and have been featured by The Boston Globe, CBS Evening News, and NPR's Here & Now.

Sumit, a finance professional and former executive at Bank of America Merrill Lynch, Citadel Securities, and Evercore ISI, now dedicates much of his time to advocacy and storytelling alongside his son. With a PhD in Electrical Engineering from Stanford and graduate degrees from Dartmouth and BITS Pilani, Sumit brings a unique lens to the conversation. Together, they are co-authoring a memoir that weaves their two perspectives into one powerful narrative—challenging assumptions and expanding what we understand about neurodiversity and human potential.

BACKGROUND READING

Twitter/X, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn

If you'd like members of your organization, school district, or company to know more about the subjects discussed on our podcast, Emily Kircher-Morris provides keynote addresses, workshops, and training sessions worldwide, in-person or virtually. You can choose from a list of established presentations, or work with Emily to develop a custom talk to fit your unique situation. To learn more, visit our website.

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.

Emily Kircher-Morris welcomes filmmaker Nicola Rose, to talk about her film 'Magnetosphere,' a movie about the world of synesthesia. Nicola shares her insights and challenges of portraying neurodivergence in cinema, the difficulty and complexity of independent filmmaking, and the personal journey of understanding her own ADHD diagnosis. They talk about the creative process, the importance of authentic representation, and the universal themes of growing up and self-discovery.

TAKEAWAYS

• Synesthesia is a perceptual phenomenon where senses are intertwined, such as seeing sounds or tasting shapes.

• Nicola Rose's film 'Magnetosphere' explores synesthesia through a coming-of-age story set in the 1990s.

• Independent filmmaking presents challenges, including limited budgets and the need for creative solutions.

• Neurodivergent individuals may find exploring many diverse activities helpful in better understanding themselves.

Here's a link to check out the Creating Neurodiversity-Affirming Schools courses that will be available soon!

Nicola Rose is a New York City-based film director and writer whose work explores neurodivergence, identity, and human connection through imaginative storytelling. She is the writer and director of Magnetosphere, a coming-of-age comedy about a neurodivergent girl discovering she has synesthesia. The film features a cast including Colin Mochrie, Tara Strong, Steven He, and Debra McGrath, and is available on major streaming platforms such as Prime Video and Apple TV.

Nicola's debut feature film, Goodbye, Petrushka, premiered at Dances With Films in Los Angeles and is now streaming widely. She has also written, directed, and produced several short films, bringing a unique creative voice to every project. Nicola is a graduate of Columbia University and the Université Sorbonne-Nouvelle in Paris.

BACKGROUND READING

Instagram, Facebook

If you'd like members of your organization, school district, or company to know more about the subjects discussed on our podcast, Emily Kircher-Morris provides keynote addresses, workshops, and training sessions worldwide, in-person or virtually. You can choose from a list of established presentations, or work with Emily to develop a custom talk to fit your unique situation. To learn more, visit our website.

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.

Emily Kircher-Morris talks with writer Amy Mackin, author of Henry's Classroom: A Special Education in American Motherhood, about her experiences navigating the special education system for her son, Henry. They discuss the challenges of accessing appropriate resources, the impact of social isolation, and how community support can make a huge difference. They talk about Amy's transition from public school to homeschooling, and the benefits of a more holistic approach to education that broadens the support group to include family and even medical professionals.

TAKEAWAYS

• Early intervention is extremely important in special education.

• Community support is instrumental in educational advocacy.

• Social isolation is impactful for families with special needs children.

• A holistic approach to education can be transformative.

• Communication between medical and educational systems can be extremely beneficial.

• There can be a big financial toll on families navigating special education.

• Homeschooling can be an alternative educational path for some.

• Student voices should be included in the IEP process.

• Educational resources vary greatly based on the socioeconomic status of each school district.

For information about inviting Emily to your organization or school district, or having her speak at your conference or event, check out the website and get in touch!

Amy Mackin is a writer whose work explores the intersections of education, cultural history, public health, and social equity. Her essays and articles have appeared in The Atlantic, Chalkbeat, The Washington Post, Literary Mama, Witness, The Shriver Report, and other publications.

She holds an MA in American Studies from the University of Massachusetts and an MFA in Nonfiction Writing from Vermont College of Fine Arts. Her debut hybrid memoir, Henry's Classroom: A Special Education in American Motherhood, was released in May 2025.

BACKGROUND READING

Facebook, Facebook (author page), LinkedIn, Instagram

The Neurodiversity Podcast is on Facebook, Instagram, BlueSky, and you're invited to join our Facebook Group.