What Maya Hawke Learned About Today's Feminism From a 1963 "Playboy" Interview | Audible.com
What Maya Hawke Learned About Today's Feminism From a 1963 "Playboy" Interview
After voicing "Cosmopolitan" editor Helen Gurley Brown in the Audible Original "The Playboy Interviews," musician and actor Maya Hawke gets personal in her own interview, reflecting on her creative origins and why today we don't put womanhood in a box.
Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.
Jody Jackson: Hey, I'm Jody Jackson, a creative producer here at Audible. I'm here today with actress and songwriter Maya Hawke to talk about her role in the new Audible Original . Hawke plays Helen Gurley Brown, the longtime editor of Cosmopolitan magazine and author ofin the audio retelling of her 1963 interview with Playboy. Welcome to Audible, Maya. It's lovely to chat with you today.
Maya Hawke: Oh, it's so wonderful to talk to you. I'm always excited whenever I get to talk to Audible because I grew up on audiobooks in a major way, because I'm dyslexic and so I used them to get through high school. It holds a very special place in my heart as a company, which very few companies do. So, I'm very happy to be on the phone with you today.
JJ: Oh, amazing. Thanks for sharing that. So, the Playboy Interview was really considered the gold standard in American journalism for decades, and the interviews really got the chance to speak to every cultural figure in the 20th and 21st centuries. People like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Frank Sinatra, Steve Jobs, and, of course, the character that you play, Helen Gurley Brown.In the Audible Original, each episode retells the interview and serves as both a window into the history at the time as well as a parallel to some of the things that you're seeing happening today. And I think this is especially true in the episode where you voice Helen Gurley Brown.So, I wanted to flip the script and I'd love to ask you some questions. We'll call this Audible's take on the Playboy Interview.
MH: Perfect.
JJ: First things first, I have a hunch that I know some of this, but what drew you to playing this role?
MH: Gosh, you know, first of all, there's the simple thing of I really love doing voiceover work, which this isn't exactly voiceover; I guess it's podcast work. But I really, as an actor, enjoy the opportunity to get to go into a sound studio and portray characters. Because when I was in drama school, what they talked about was, the point of drama school was to get to practice your craft and make mistakes and play characters you wouldn't normally get to play professionally, in a space where you weren't going to be critically reviewed, where you had space to experiment. And in my opinion, getting to separate your voice from your body also gives you permission to play characters you might normally not get cast as or haven't played before, or try out different voices or different ages. So just as a baseline, I love doing that kind of work. I generally raise my hand to do it when given the opportunity because I think it's a great way to practice your craft and experiment slightly outside of your comfort zone.
"The thing that I admire most about [Helen Gurley Brown] is the openness and directness of the way that she pursued her truth and her feminism and her clarity."
And then Helen Gurley Brown just seemed like such a fun kind of way to practice and to get to learn about her brain by embodying all her words. Even when you play a character that's existed before, you're playing the writer's version of that character. And in this situation, you're trying to play the stream of consciousness, all of the dialogue that she really spoke. That felt really exciting. And then there's just her as a person who is so comedically funny, had such a cultural influence at the time. If you listen to or read the interview, you'll feel a lot of lights go off, of what that influence was. And things that are still in our culture and things that seem really dated. And it just felt really inspiring and interesting to me and an exciting brain to dive into for an afternoon.
JJ: Amazing. I love the setup of this particular Audible project because, like you said, it's really fun that it's exactly written for us, but then you get to interpret that, what's on the page, and just really enjoy the format. You mentioned this a little bit, but part of the topics that she really dives into are a lot of things that we are kind of still working our way through today as a people, as a nation in particular. Obviously, she gets into abortion at the very top of the interview. She talks about sexual gratification. But also, generally, she was kind of an iconic figure because she spoke very often about things that many other people were unwilling to speak about at the time.I just am curious, what are some of the areas where you find yourself agreeing with her and maybe some where you may not?
MH: Looking back at the history of feminism, the fight for women's equality and sexual liberation, and it is so interesting because sometimes there are places where I feel her working harder. There are ways in which her advocacy feels dated, where it doesn't feel like she's fighting the right battles. And some of the things that she wanted now feel like things we don't want anymore. For the most part she's such an inspiring figure in the way that she spoke so openly. And I guess the thing that I admire most about her is the openness and directness of the way that she pursued her truth and her feminism and her clarity.
I think that there are things about femininity and the ways in which you were supposed to be a feminine woman and the goals you should have in mind of acquiring a man or, like, the strategy. Like, thinking about womanhood strategically feels pretty far away from me now. I think that a part of what the feminism of my generation is, is not having to do that anymore. Like, she's working really hard to strategically handle womanhood.
JJ: [laughs]
MH: And to fit her intensity and her brilliance and her genius into the box that has been provided for her of what it means to be a woman. And I think now we're sort of like, "Whoa, that's a lot of work. Maybe we can just not do that. Maybe we don't have to fit in that box. Maybe womanhood can mean a lot of different things, or you don't even have to call yourself that if you don't want to." I think that that generation was working really hard to make what they'd been given work for them. And to fit their freedom and their independence and their rights into that box. And now we're sort of trying to do away with the box altogether.
JJ: I love that. I was having kind of a similar thing as I was reading through some of the other interviews or even some of the Cosmopolitan articles. I found it very interesting because, to your point, she clearly was trying to make space and challenge the status quo but there was very much a formula for a lot of the things that she was describing. You know, “this is how to please a man” or things like that where you're like, "Huh," that obviously in this moment doesn't necessarily make sense for most of us.But I do appreciate, like you said, her openness and willing to challenge it.
I saw this interview where you shared that some of the best advice you've ever received is “don't make your habit the only option,” and I thought that was really interesting. So, I was just curious, what choices did you make when voicing Helen in this role that were maybe counter to some of your usual vocal habits?
MH: Oh, interesting. Let me try to remember. She's proper, like a properness about the way that she speaks. I didn't want to do a full impersonation. I wasn't playing her in a movie. So, I felt like the point was to deliver the tone, the sense of humor, and to make it relatable and so people could listen and connect to it. But I did think that her directness and hard consonants, which I sometimes have. I grew up in New York and so a New York accent does have a lot of hard consonants generally, but in modernity we're all softening. Our language is kind of getting softer and more blurry. Very few people hit their T’s in exactly the right way, or even occasionally too much because hitting your T makes you sound a little pretentious. And so sometimes people who are trying to be pretentious would hit T’s they didn't need to hit. Like the T in water. You're not actually supposed to hit that T but people who are trying to sound like they're educated might, you know? So, I went for hard consonants and kind of a big voice and a sense of humor.
JJ: Amazing. So, there's the part in the interview and in the episode that I really enjoyed, both Helen's answer but how you played it, where the interviewer is in some ways trying to catch her off guard, it feels like, sometimes the way he's asking questions. And he basically is asking her, do you think that words like “little bitty” and “pippy poo” are good examples of writing? And she essentially says that she's authentic in using those words. It's not a front. I was just interested in if you identified with her communication style in any way.
MH: I think I identify with it in the way in which playfulness is a very useful tool to break down people's walls. That if you come at people with a sense of goofiness—I don't mean a sense of humor, exactly, because pippy poo is not a joke. It's something else. It's a sense of silliness, almost, to me. Humor works this way too. You can sneak a lot of hard edges and big points into people's brains if you catch them off guard.
JJ: That's really interesting.
MH: And again, this is another way in which I feel like women were working really hard to be heard and that she was working really hard to be heard. Where, in some ways, you shouldn't have to do that, you know?
JJ: Yeah.
MH: You shouldn't have to be funny or pretty or silly or cutesy to get your very intelligent, hardcore ideas across. But that said, sometimes you do. Sometimes it is a useful tool to communicate with other people. And so in that way, I identify with it. I've been working on not doing this. But in my high school, college, early years, and still now, I would sort of put on a ditz personality. Like, "Oh, I don't even know where I am. Oh, whoops. How did I end up here? I don't know. Like, geez. Oh, did I just spill that? I'm so sorry."
JJ: [Laughs]
MH: "Uh, my legs are so long and my arms are so gangly, I don't even know what I'm bumping into." To sort of counteract my intensity. I'm a pretty intense person and so doing that would counteract my intensity, and I'm working on doing that less. And letting myself be as intense as I am. But I still do it.
JJ: Wow. That's really insightful. Something else about her that I found really interesting is, generally speaking, she comes across as so audacious. Everything she says feels delightful because it's a little shocking in certain ways. There's this part where the interviewer's basically interrogating her about "Well, you said this about married men frisking about. Would you be okay with your husband frisking about?" And she basically answers him and says, "Well, this is his third marriage so he's probably already done his frisking. But also he married a sexy, sophisticated, worldly, uninhibited man's kind of woman." That kind of took me aback just because I love her coming out and saying that. And I was curious, you touched on this a bit but, do you identify with that level of confidence or audacity, really?
MH: Well, I don't know. That phrase has a lot in it. And one part that's interesting is “man's kind of woman,” which is a little bit like, "Oh, you're not like other girls," which is a sentiment that people have taken to task lately. How that'll be a compliment that a boy would give to a girl to say, "I like you. You're not like other girls." I don't want that to be a compliment, you know? I want to be like other girls. I love other girls. So, saying you're a man's kind of woman is a little bit like putting that comment on yourself. Like, "I'm like a man. I'm not like other women." And I understand what she means, especially in that time. And I have had that thought myself, but I also think that we all need to elevate our idea of what it means to be a woman and our respect for other women generally. And in our greatness see ourselves aligned with women. And not necessarily have to be just like men, unless you want to be. It's all complicated.
"It's not that I think that I was such a special kid. I think that it's just I had two really creative parents who were in positions where they had to figure out how to relate to a kid all by themselves when they were really young."
So, there's that part. And then there's the part where she gives herself all these magnificent compliments. Ego is a double-edged sword. I was going to say confidence is a double-edged sword but confidence, I think, comes from a really deep place of self-acceptance that maybe isn't a double-edged sword in the way that I like to think about the meaning of that word. Ego, on the other hand, every time I walk down the street and think, "I look freaking great today. I am on my way to this cool thing. I've got awesome friends. I'm smart, I'm successful." Every time those thoughts run through my head, I know there are corresponding thoughts and they are, "I look like shit. I don't have any friends. I'm not as successful as I should be." Every boastful feeling I have—and boastful is different than confident—but every boastful feeling I have is always accompanied by its counterpart negative: self-criticism.
And so I'm not assuming that that's what she's doing there, but sometimes when I say how great I'm doing out loud or how great I am, I'm like, "Ooh, I must really be actually really insecure about those things." And, generally, the things I'm most secure about, I don't brag about very much. And so I don't know if that's anything to do with her, but you asked me about me. And so I definitely identify with that. There are times where sentences like that have left my mouth and the taste they leave on my lips once they're out is, "Uh-oh." Like, "There's another edge to that sword," you know? "I must be working a little too hard."
JJ: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Confidence is a bit quieter. Cool. In this next part, I was just curious, I've obviously seen you in Stranger Things. I've seen you in Do Revenge, among other things. When you take on new characters, including this one, do you ever feel like you absorb a character trait moving forward from that character?
MH: Yeah, the question is how long you absorb it for. I have a rule for myself now, that I'm not allowed to shop when I'm doing a part. Because I had several experiences. My first job, Little Women for the BBC, and then on Stranger Things, I bought a ton of clothes while I was doing them and I was like, "I finally know who I am. I like long skirts and I want to wear, like, petticoats actually." And I found myself making all these purchases of clothing that, then a couple months after the show or movie was over—I mean, on Stranger Things I got chokers—and then when those were over I was like, "Oh, that was the character. It's actually not what I want to wear. Whoops." And so I definitely take on huge aspects of whoever I'm playing and it influences the way I look at the world and the way I think about things. And some of them stick and stay. But a lot of them fade away. I think, in a non-actor-y way, it's kind of similar to a new group of friends, sometimes. You know, when you start hanging out with a new group of people and you take on their slang, or you start liking TV shows they like or change the way you dress or try a new cocktail and think it's the best thing ever. It's a little like that, and as time goes on, some of those things stay and some of them fade away.
JJ: That makes sense. I like the bit about the petticoats. That's very funny to imagine. As a fellow creative, I was curious, I saw a really lovely interview with Seth Meyers and your dad [Ethan Hawke] talking about you as a child and how you were always so creative and had a point of view, and how much he has always enjoyed talking about art with you. Obviously, you're a multi-creative songwriter, actress among many other things, and I was just curious if there's something that's top-of-mind or a creative interest that's currently really jumping out to you or that you're focusing on in 2023.
MH: I have so much to say about that question. The first part I'd say is that I'm always so flattered when my dad talks about me that way, but I do always wonder, the chicken or the egg? Which is, my parents got divorced when I was really pretty young and my brother was just a baby. And so there was a couple really formative years, I guess six and seven maybe. Really formative years where I would have these alone times with my dad who was in his early 30s, which sounded really old to me at the time and now I have so many friends that are in their 30s, none of whom have six-year-olds. And imagining them hanging out with a six-year-old for hours on end is very funny.
Fathers often end up relating to their kids as they get a little bit older, or at least in an old-fashioned sense. I think now that's changing as ideas of masculinity are changing. But when parents get divorced you have to figure out a way to relate to your kid now, in the moment, because it's just you and them alone. And I both had an aptitude for it, I think. But we lived in the Chelsea Hotel at the time and it would just be the two of us basically alone. And we had to figure out what to do with each other and the iPad wasn't invented yet. So, he had a typewriter and I didn't want to go to sleep and he'd be like, "Okay, do you want to write a poem? Or do a watercolor?" He was trying to figure out what to do with me. And he is this deeply creative person. And so we do all that stuff together. I think it had a huge impact on me and the amount of creative things I like doing.
Anyway, that's just a little history. It's not that I think that I was such a special kid. I think that it's just I had two really creative parents who were in positions where they had to figure out how to relate to a kid all by themselves when they were really young. I think that had a huge influence on the way my brain works and the way I think about things.
I really love acting, and the next year definitely holds the final season of Stranger Things for me. I'm not sure when or where but it's gonna hold that. And I'm really excited to do that. I definitely have been on a journey in terms of my relationship to that show. From fan to new kid on the street to pandemic filming. It's been really intense, and I'm in love with my character. I've made incredible friends, and I'm so excited to go back to Atlanta and give it the send-off it deserves and give her the send-off she deserves.
I'm also working on more music. I'm actually this week in writing sessions with my band to finish writing a third record. And I'm going to go on tour this year. And I'm making a movie that I can't talk that much about but that I have been germinating, that I've been a part of the idea for this movie since it was a little seed baby. For many, many, many years. And that's finally going to happen. I've got some fun stuff coming out. I did a Wes Anderson movie this year that's going to come out and I'm so excited about that. There's a lotta stuff and I'm excited about all of it.
JJ: Amazing. Excited for those things as well. Can't wait to dive into a couple of the things you mentioned, and excited to hear the new music as well.
MH: Thanks.
JJ: So, I guess before we sign off today I just want to thank you so much for being here and chatting with us.
MH: Thank you.
JJ: Listeners, you can check out The Playboy Interview on Audible now.
