Little Everywhere / Higher Ground Productions / Audible
Speaker:
Higher Ground and Audible Originals present The Light Podcast with Michelle Obama.
Gayle King:
How, how, how to introduce Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama. How do we do that? Are you as excited as I am to be here? Honest to God, I just saw her backstage. She looks good. So everybody in this room knows how spectacular she is. We all know she graduated from Princeton undergrad, Harvard Law, raised not one, but two fabulous young women. The Hugger In Chief, as it says so right there on her Instagram, has carried so much honesty, decency, and light that I actually would not be surprised to hear guys that she glows in the dark. I like that. It's my pleasure to welcome to the stage, Michelle Obama.
Michelle Obama:
Hello everyone. This is The Light Podcast, and I'm Michelle Obama. For a long time, one of my biggest fears has been whether or not I'm messing up my kids. It's a thought that runs through every parent's mind. Am I being too lenient or am I coming down on them too hard? Is comforting them during a temper tantrum really going to calm them down or is it going to make them dependent on me for the rest of their lives? I'll admit it's not all entirely rational, but either way, it is very, very real. And even if you don't have kids yet, but you're thinking about it, you're probably wondering if you'll be a good parent. This stuff is important to think through because figuring out how to be a positive influence on a child is tough. It's a constantly moving target, but at the same time, it is a singularly powerful experience.
Maybe the most fundamental way that one human can share their light with another. That's what I get into in this episode and I'm thrilled to do it with my good friend Gayle King, one of the most incredible moms I know. Now, Gayle and I go way back. We met right around the time Barack was elected, and these days she and I are always texting about one thing or another.
I actually knitted a little gift for her adorable new grandson. One of my favorite things about Gayle is how supportive she is. She's always hyping me up. I'm sure some of you have someone like her in your life too, and doesn't it just mean the world when you have someone in your life who is always cheering you on? It just makes you stand a little taller and look at everything around you with more confidence and joy. Honestly, I'm sure that's a big part of what makes her not just a great friend, but such a good mother and grandmother too. So, take a listen.
Michelle Obama:
Everybody's in the house and looking good. Thank you for coming out. Hi, Gayle King.
It never gets old. It never gets old. I took the train up here, guys from New York, and we had a woman conductor and she said, "Where are you going, Gayle? Why are you going to Philadelphia?" Because she thought I was going to DC. I said, "No, I'm going to Philadelphia because I get to interview Michelle Obama on stage." And she said, "I'm from Philly." And so she said, "I love me some Michelle Obama." Don't we all say that? And then her name is Trina. She said, "I love her style. I love her grace." Isn't that nice? I know. I just like knowing.
Michelle Obama:
That's so sweet.
Gayle King:
It's sort of like, I just like knowing she's in the building. So I want to talk about the book, but before we talk about the book, can I just talk about your look? I love that you're wearing... I know. Yes. I love that you're wearing braids, Michelle!!
Michelle Obama:
Braids.
Gayle King:
I love that you're wearing braids.
Michelle Obama:
Braids with a vicious pony.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
Yes, indeed.
Gayle King:
No, now, we never saw you in-
Michelle Obama:
I'm free!
Gayle King:
Yeah. We never saw you in braids in the White House. Did you ever think about braids in the White House?
Michelle Obama:
You know what? Yeah, I did. Because first of all, it's an important protective style and as we know when we are public figures, we're getting our hair fried and dyed and all of that.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
And my goal for the eight years is just let me have some hair in my head–
Gayle King:
Yeah. Yes.
Michelle Obama:
–when it's over.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
So yeah, I thought about getting braids, but it's like I knew it would be a thing, right? I mean, when I got bangs cut, it was front page news. Just some bangs and I used to tease my team. I was like, "You know, I'm thinking about braids." And folks would be like, "Oh, oh, oh."
Gayle King:
Would it be crickets in the room?
Michelle Obama:
But it would be misinterpreted. They would be “terrorist braids.” They would be called on the headline, “revolutionary braids.” “What is Michelle Obama trying to say about her anti-American stance?” So I thought they got enough to deal with us just because we black, so I figured, let me keep my hair straight.
Gayle King:
I love the braids because I was thinking, I wonder what would happen guys, if I showed up at CBS with braids? I think they'd be saying, "Um." And the reason why I say that-
Michelle Obama:
I think you should try it, Gayle!
Gayle King:
I'm going to say-
Michelle Obama:
Tell them-
Gayle King:
I'm going to walk in there and say, "Michelle Obama said so."
Michelle Obama:
And I will come in. I'll be like, "Do what? Don't say nothing about her braids." And I want to applaud young women who are really owning all of who we are with our hair. I think this generation is really what's opening up. You guys are doing your locks and your sister twist and your hootie doots and all of that, and I am just here for it because we got to bring all of our full selves into our spaces.
Gayle King:
Yes. Yes.
Michelle Obama:
So thank you.
Gayle King:
I know, because I remember Michelle, once I wore my hair just curly, we were covering the Super Bowl and a muckety-muck at CBS said to me, "Oh, that's interesting, your hair. Are you going to wear it like that tomorrow?"
Michelle Obama:
It's interesting.
Gayle King:
What do you think the translation is of “that's interesting.” Are you going to wear it like that tomorrow?
Michelle Obama:
It's like they've got to be able to understand our hair. It's like, it's not for you to understand.
Gayle King:
So, when I saw you with braids, I was so excited.I love this. Page 73, she says, “To this day, I remain a little shocked that Barack and I managed to land our flying motorcycle and we made it through eight years in the White House, but somehow we did. The bad news is that it hasn't eliminated fear and doubt in my life. The good news is that I'm not intimidated by my own thoughts anymore.” Isn't that good? That's page 73.
Michelle Obama:
And that is a practice. And kids ask me this all the time.
Gayle King:
But how do you have doubt? I don't understand how you, Michelle Obama-
Michelle Obama:
We all have doubt.
Gayle King:
Doubt? Do we?
Michelle Obama:
We all have doubt. We don't admit it, and I don't want to be too sexist, but men are the least likely to admit it. And y'all know you scared. You know you scared all the time, but you're not supposed to pretend to be scared. We all have doubt because we live in a society that places it, especially if you're a woman, if you're a woman of color, that we have been getting signals our whole lives that we are not good enough, that we're not worthy, and to pretend like that doesn't hurt. Because I don't want to pretend like it doesn't hurt because I want people to stop doing that.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
I don't want people to speak so blithely and to say certain things and thinkthat it doesn't hurt. If I sit up here saying, "No, it doesn't bother me at all." Then that gives people permission to keep doing it.
Gayle King:
Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
So yes, I have grown up with doubt. I've grown up with fear. I've grown up with this. Am I getting it right? Wanting to be perfect-
Gayle King:
And you still feel the doubt? You still feel it?
Michelle Obama:
Absolutely.
Gayle King:
Do you feel you still have something to prove?
Michelle Obama:
I don't think I have anything to prove. I think excellence is now my habit.
Gayle King:
Oh, I love that! Excellence is now my habit.
Michelle Obama:
But for young people, that's the thing. Excellence is a thing you practice.
Gayle King:
I love that.
Michelle Obama:
You practice who you want to be every single day. I try to tell my girls this, "If you want to be a professional and be on time, you got to start doing that when you're seven and nine."
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
You don't wait until you get the position to try to show up.
Gayle King:
Exactly right.
Michelle Obama:
So I have been practicing getting things right for a long time.
Gayle King:
I so believe that.
Michelle Obama:
I don't know how to be late. I don't know how to-
Gayle King:
When I say punctual, they told me we will come and get you at 8:09. You will go down to see Mrs. Obama at 8:11. You will take a picture at 8:15. And that, guys, is exactly what happened.So when I said punctuality…but I agree with you. I remember when favorite daughter, Kirby, favorite son, Will, I would always say to them, "If you had a homework assignment and you were supposed to only do three things, do five, get your homework in early."
Michelle Obama:
Yes.
Gayle King:
Always do more than what is expected of you. I just wanted them to start life that way.
Michelle Obama:
That's right.
Gayle King:
But this is the thing, I didn't realize this in the book that you moved into the White House in nine weeks from the time they won. Think about that. She said "We needed a pencil box for Sasha, a ball gown for me. We needed a toothbrush holder and, oh yeah, an economic rescue package." You're moving to a city where you don't really know very many people and that in nine weeks, Michelle, you had to turn that around. How did you do that?
Michelle Obama:
And it was probably shorter than that, because the election was November. We had to change the girls' school and the semester started right at the first of the year.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
The inauguration wasn't until the end of January.
Gayle King:
January, yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Which is also why all of this is inconvenient for families. The whole presidential thing isn't structured for a family. So I had to get them to DC to start school in January, even though we wouldn't have access to the home we were supposed to be living in until the day of inauguration.
Gayle King:
Oh, yeah.
Michelle Obama:
Because I didn't want my kids starting a new school. They already would have to start in the middle of the school year. I didn't want them to start late after the middle. The break after Christmas was when school would start, so we had to get there even earlier than that.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
We lived in the Hay-Adams Hotel. They were like... Who's that little girl that lives in the hotel?Eloise.
Gayle King:
Eloise. That's her name.
Gayle King:
At the plaza.
Michelle Obama:
They lived like Eloise for three weeks out of suitcases because we couldn't move into the White House. You get literally one day to move in.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
The day that the President-
Gayle King:
They're moving out the same day.
Michelle Obama:
The sitting president leaves, his stuff goes out one door, your stuff comes in and in the middle of the parade and all that, you see that pomp and circumstance. They're moving our stuff in. But the kids had been in school for three weeks before inauguration. So we've tried so hard to create a sense of normalcy for the kids to keep them on a schedule, to keep them feeling with the abnormal, crazy, thing we put them through, that they were just regular kids living regular lives.
Gayle King:
You always made that clear that your main priority was your children.
Michelle Obama:
Absolutely.
Gayle King:
This was very wonderful, being in the White House and being President, but that your main concern is for your children. I can remember when you were campaigning said, I want to do something in the morning and get back. I want to be back when the kids go to be bed and I was always in awe of that.
Kristin Jones:
I am Kristin Jones. I'm co-founder and partner at Inside Projects, and I am Mrs. Obama's former assistant from the White House and also a friend. When I think about what I've gained from the experience of not just working with Michelle, but also being her mentee and building a really deep friendship with her, I think one of the biggest things I've gained is just a multi-generational friend group. How much the wisdom of Michelle and her friends, who are all mentors to me, has helped me evolve at what I think is a much more rapid rate than it would've been if I did not have those women in my life. This includes everything from calling Dr. Malone if I have a doctor's appointment and something is confusing to me, or calling Michele Norris, if I'm having writer's block or I'm trying to figure out something with how I do a presentation. All of these women are there for me. I think I've just learned that it's been really beneficial to have women who can consistently help me zoom out and see the bigger picture about things that are happening in my life versus having to process everything through the lens of what I am immediately experiencing and what I have experienced so far in life. They lend me their life experience in a really loving and gracious way.
Michelle Obama:
Here's more of my conversation with Gayle King
Gayle King:
In the book about Sasha and Malia, "The truth is," you say, on page 155,"I'm hoping our daughters won't rush out of the flea market stage of life." I love this analogy that you make about the flea market stage. What does that mean?
Michelle Obama:
This is when you try on a bunch of stuff, you're trying out life, and that's an important stage to figure out who you are on your own to be able to know that you can stand on your own. But I want them to try-
Gayle King:
So you encourage them to date and do-
Michelle Obama:
Oh, absolutely. They're 21 and 24.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
It's like you need to know all that's out there. You need to know who you are going to be in a relationship. It takes a minute. And life is long if you're lucky and all this rushing, young people rushing to be grown, rushing to get married. Oh, slow down because it's waiting for you. And when you get there, you'll be like, "Is this it?"
Gayle King:
Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
"Is this what I was rushing to?" So take your time. I want them to work. I want them to grow. I want them to live on their own. I want them to learn how to pay bills. I want them to have their heart broken and get over it.
Gayle King:
Yeah.
Michelle Obama:
And that takes some time. And if you're so focused on trying to match up and if we only define happiness, especially for women, as you get married and you have children, it just narrows things. And I have just seen so many amazing women who have chosen not to be married or have kids who are perfectly happy and content.
Gayle King:
Yes, yes, yes.
Michelle Obama:
And if you can't, if you don't find that partner, if you aren't able to have kids, I don't want my children's life to be dependent upon a choice that is out of their control. And I don't want them to just pick anybody.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
To say, oh, I'm married. Right?
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
Because too many of us do that. I also advise them-
Gayle King:
I encourage them freezing eggs too, just to take off some of the pressure.
Michelle Obama:
Freeze eggs. Freeze them.
Gayle King:
Yeah, take off some of the pressure.
Michelle Obama:
Take off some of the pressure.
Gayle King:
But I marvel too at how you raised them because they were both so lovely, both of them. I was on a flight with Sasha and she was by herself, and we arrived from Martha's Vineyard to New York and we landed in New York and they had sent a cart to get me, because I like a cart to take me to baggage claim. Because when you're in east Jesus, you're in east... Now, have you guys been to the airport where you walk a frigging mile and a half to get to baggage claim? So I don't mind paying whatever it cost to have the cart come meet me. It's not that I'm not capable, but I'm schlepping all this stuff. So Sasha was on the plane. I said, Sasha, you can have a cart, you can... And she was doing a connecting flight. I said, "The cart can take you." And she goes, "I actually prefer to walk." I went, "Okay." She goes, "No, I actually prefer to walk. I just like being out." And I was so struck by that. It's not that she just said, "No, no, no." And I said, "Are you okay?" She goes, "I'm good, I'm good." She had on her mask, so it's not like people could tell.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, I like to hear that. I don't like to hear that they're out there spending money like they have it.
Gayle King:
But you know-
Michelle Obama:
No, they're good girls.
Gayle King:
It struck me that she said, "No, I just want to walk. I'm good." What would you say that they say their experience at the White House was for them because they are in a bubble, and how do you make friends and how you really did keep them so normal? I would imagine you guys had some bumps or something at the White House?
Michelle Obama:
Oh yeah. I mean, parenting out loud is… parenting in front of the world is not an easy thing. I treated parenting my girls like my parents parented me. I wanted them to be independent early. I wanted them to be able to wake themselves up, make their own beds. They had to do their own homework. There was no helicoptering because I wanted them to rise and fall on their own merits.
Gayle King:
How did they learn to drive?
Michelle Obama:
That we instructed. You have to instruct the Secret Service to say the kids have to learn how to drive. So we bought them one car, the Secret Service-
Gayle King:
What kind of car was it?
Michelle Obama:
It's a Subaru. In fact, Sasha still has it.
Gayle King:
She does?
Michelle Obama:
She has decorated it with cow cushions and I mean, God knows what, it looks crazy, but she's driving the same car that they shared in high school.
Gayle King:
Oh, that's good.
Michelle Obama:
So Malia was first up to drive. And so the agents would take them to the Secret Service driving range for their initial test to get them-
Gayle King:
The Secret Service driving range?
Michelle Obama:
There is a driving range, but they went and they taught them how to drive and then they got their permits. And then I said, "And once they have their permits, they have to drive." So an agent would be next to them. So I knew that they were learning how to drive.
Gayle King:
So in the car, an agent with them?
Michelle Obama:
In their car. And we had to make this happen because I was like, when this is over, they're going to be out in the world. And they have to know how to drive, get through an airport, buy their own tickets. They are not first daughters forever. That's done.
Gayle King:
But fast forward to 2022, they're now roommates. I love that they're roommates.
Michelle Obama:
Malia and Sasha are roommates. They actually like each other. And that is a big win as a parent because they didn't like each other for a while. And I was like, "It's coming. It is coming. I guarantee you." Because a three-year age difference, when you're seven and 10, that's like, ugh. But now that they're 24 and 21, Sasha's a little less crazy, Malia's more patient and they are the best of friends.
Gayle King:
But I always say with siblings though, if all goes according to plan, the siblings will know you longer than anybody else.
Michelle Obama:
Absolutely.
Gayle King:
Now hopefully your parents will go before you do.
Michelle Obama:
If we're blessed.
Gayle King:
So the bond that the two of you have is like no other.
Michelle Obama:
And for them to have gone through this unique experience together that no one understands their shared trauma, their shared joy, the interesting trips that they were forced to go on, the sites that they saw, the people they met.
Gayle King:
The people that they met. Oh my God. Yes.
Michelle Obama:
No one else can relate to that. So it's good that they have each other.
Jessica:
I'm Jessica.
Nicole:
I'm Nicole.
Jessica:
We're identical.
Nicole:
We're identical twins.
Jessica:
We're really close. We live together, work together.
Nicole:
We have the same interests.
Jessica:
Sometimes it can be a lot, but we're each other's biggest cheerleaders, so it helps having each other around, especially when things get... you know.
Nicole:
We did quarantine together. Yes, it was, I think overall I just felt really grateful to have her there because things got really scary. And it's easier to forget now. In 2020, we were dying for human connection. And so having my sister with me, I think really helped get each other through it.
Jessica:
Yeah. We've learned to get along really well I think individually through therapy appointments. So I think if we're going to be quarantined with anybody, we were a good choice for each other to be locked up together.
Gayle King:
You tell a funny story about they have their own apartment and you were Face Timing and you saw, I think it was Sasha-
Michelle Obama:
I was Face Timing with Sasha. So we talk about making home, and one of the funnest things is when you see your adult children starting to make their own home. And they have this apartment together, and I'm Face Timing with Sasha, and Malia is, she's got the Swiffer thing that goes on the mop. She has it in her hand and she's like... I'm like, "Hold up Sasha." I was like, "Malia, what are you doing?" She's like, "I'm pre-dusting." I was like, "Okay, first of all, I'm like, you are dusting. Whoa, impressed." But I said, "There's no need to pre-dust. Have you ever heard of Pledge?" And she was like, "Tell me more about this Pledge…"
Gayle King:
It comes in a yellow can.
Michelle Obama:
It comes in a yellow can.
Gayle King:
There's Lemon.
Michelle Obama:
Lemony Fresh. And she says, "See the thing about dust Mom, you dust one day and it comes back the next day." And I said, "Yeah, that's the tricky thing about dust." You know? I said, "But with Pledge, you pick it up." And she's like, "Fascinating." So it's just fun watching them take care of their stuff better than they took care of your stuff. You dust your stuff. They wanted us to. We went over for cocktails for them and they made drinks-
Gayle King:
Cocktails!
Michelle Obama:
... and a charcuterie tray. First of all, they complained about the price of cheese, which is like, we didn't know. We didn't know how much these things cost. And then we had our drinks. They were like, "Ah, get a coaster." I was like...
Gayle King:
See, they learned. Did they use a coaster at home?
Michelle Obama:
They didn't use a single coaster in The People's House. They didn't care about The People's House.
Gayle King:
But see they learned.
Michelle Obama:
But they care about their house.
Gayle King:
What is a song, not that you like, but a song that you think represents who you are? Because mine is "Walking on Sunshine." So when I say I'm so happy I'm walking on sunshine.
Michelle Obama:
That is Gayle. Now let me tell you something about Gayle.
Gayle King:
I am so well–
Michelle Obama:
Yes. You're just so crazy. That's why you don't have any wrinkles because you in the morning-
Gayle King:
I don't know Michelle... I've got a good glam team.
Michelle Obama:
Hey, buddy, remember that. Yeah.
Gayle King:
I've got a good glam team.
Michelle Obama:
I've never thought about a song.. That's a hard one.
Gayle King:
That's just to sort of– Well, you don't have to have an answer.
Michelle Obama:
Yeah, I don't have a theme song. I-- all my theme songs are Beyonce songs. Which, have nothing to do with...
Gayle King:
I know.
Michelle Obama:
You know.
Gayle King:
But the title is The Light We Carry. Could you just leave us with,The Light We Carry means what to you and what do you want the audience to take away from reading your book, The Light We Carry?
Michelle Obama:
We all have it. As I said, we're born with it, but we have to learn how to nurture it for ourselves. We can't wait for other people-
Gayle King:
To nurture it.
Michelle Obama:
... to nurture our light because they may not have it in them. They may be broken in ways that we don't even know. That's where empathy comes in. So you can't rely too much on other people. It starts from within.
Gayle King:
Yes. Yes.
Michelle Obama:
And for us who have any access to kids in our lives, we can help them see their light with just our kindness, our gladness, our acceptance, our warmth, our goals should be building each other's lights up.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
And feeling like we have that obligation to each other because we will all prosper. We do not flourish in the darkness. So use your tools.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
Find them, share them, explore them for yourselves. Use this book as a guide, but write your own guidebook and then talk about it with each other. Talk about what works for you, what more we need. We have to stay hopeful. There isn't a choice. And if we wonder why we think about the next generation, I stay hopeful because our kids require us to be hopeful.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
There is no choice.
Gayle King:
Yes.
Michelle Obama:
And we can do this you all, we've done it before. We are a good people through and through. White, black, I don't care what, I have met people all over the world and everyone is just trying to be seen and heard and recognized. We don't have to agree, but we have to treat each other with decency and I think we can do better.
Gayle King:
Yes. We can go do that. Michelle Obama, we thank you.
Michelle Obama:
Thank you, Gayle.
Michelle Obama:
All of us are born with a light and then life happens and we develop these fears and anxieties that try to mess with it. I was lucky enough to grow up with parents who saw me, who nurtured me, who kindled that light. And that's what I'm trying to do for my girls. But that doesn't mean the world never dimmed my light. And it doesn't mean it won't dim their light from time to time either. Because like I said, the one thing that's guaranteed in life is uncertainty. And when it comes, our light is our life jacket.
It's our reminder that we are capable of overcoming fear and anxiety and hardship. And now that I'm not with them everyday brushing their teeth and tucking them in at night, more than anything else, that's what I want Malia and Sasha to remember. And that's what I hope you all remember, too. You can do this thing, this thing called life. We can do this. We've just got to keep kindling the flame within ourselves and within each other. Thanks again for listening and thank you, Gayle, for shining your light, too. I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker:
This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original, produced by Higher Ground and Little Everywhere. Executive produced by Dan Fierman and Mukta Mohan for Higher Ground and Jane Marie for Little Everywhere. Audible executive producers, Zola Mashariki and Nick D'Angelo. Audible co-producers, Keith Wooten and Glynn Pogue. Produced by Mike Richter with additional production by Joy Sanford, Dann Gallucci, Nancy Golombisky, and Lisa Pollak with production support from Andrew Eapen, Jenna Levin and Julia Murray. Location recording by Jody Elff. Special thanks to Melissa Winter, Jill Van Lokeren, Crystal Carson, Alex May-Sealey, Halle Ewing, Merone Hailemeskel, Sierra Tyler, Carl Ray Njeri Radway, Meredith Koop, Sara Corbett, Tyler Lechtenberg, and Asra Najam. The theme song is Unstoppable by Sia. The closing song is Lovely Day by Bill Withers. Audible Head of US content, Rachel Ghiazza. Head of Audible Studios, Zola Mashariki. Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Sound Recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Voiceover by Novena Carmel. This episode was recorded live at the Met in Philadelphia.
