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Kat Johnson: Hi there. I'm Audible Editor Kat Johnson, and I'm thrilled today to be speaking with author Parini Shroff, whose new novel The Bandit Queens is shaping up to be one of the season's buzziest debuts. Welcome, Parini.
Parini Shroff: Hello. Thank you so much for having me here, Kat.
KJ: Thank you so much for being here. Huge congratulations on publishing your first novel. This is a wild ride, and I don't want to get into spoiler territory, so I'm curious how you describe the novel to people.
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PS: I'm glad you asked that because I've been working on my elevator pitch. It turns out I wasn't so great in the beginning. I would try to describe it as a comedy. It's a dark comedy and it follows Geeta, an artisan living in a village in modern day India. Her husband disappeared five years ago. Everyone in the village thinks she killed him. She didn't. But it's a rumor that she finds surprisingly helpful for her business and her life. But then the other women in the village start demanding her help because they, too, want to become self-made widows, because they see that Geeta's life of freedom is appealing and they want a piece of that. And Geeta must decide whether to help them, and if she does, at what cost, because the stakes keep getting higher and shenanigans ensue and Geeta and these other women must make choices to support each other and themselves.
KJ: I think that's a good elevator pitch. I absolutely love the premise of this novel, and I agree with you about dark comedy. I've seen it described as darkly hilarious, which I think is true, but it's also almost the opposite because it's handling heavy topics with a really light touch. To me, everything is better when it's funny. So, thank you for making this hilarious. I'm curious about how you achieved that balance of comedy and seriousness. Are you a funny person in general, or was that something that you kind of worked at? How did that go?
PS: I like to think I'm funny, but maybe everybody likes to think they're funny? I'm not sure. You can tell me at the end of the interview whether I'm actually funny, Kat [laughs]. The novel’s comedy started creeping in and I kept shoving it aside. I thought, we're tackling some very timely, serious issues such as abuse of various kinds: misogyny, patriarchy, and there's casteism that I address in the novel as well. And when I found one-liners or witty banter creeping into the narrative, at first I tried to reject it. I thought it was very irreverent. But that comedy kept coming back to me. And I thought, you know, "Why not just try? Why not just lean into it and try?" And I found that it served the narrative and also moved the plot forward. Instead of rejecting it, I decided to let the narrative be what it wanted to be, which is darkly hilarious, hopefully. And it took off from there. So I'm so happy to hear that the comedy works for you, because I was a little nervous about it, but it seems to be getting a nice response.
KJ: Yes. It's very funny. And I think what makes it work so well is that it's really driven by the characters, like you say. I mean, a lot of the funny moments are dialogue, and the characters are incredible. I love this sort of sisterhood that develops. The main character, Geeta, like you said, her husband Ramesh disappeared, and so now she's kind of an outcast because people think that she killed him. And I love the way that she uses her sort of pariah status to her advantage. And I'm just curious how you came up with that idea, and what was appealing to you about a character who was living in this kind of outsider space?
PS: I think when you have a protagonist who starts off in a lonely, isolated position such as Geeta, it is functionally easy to get interiority into the character, and therefore the reader can feel closer to the character because there aren't third parties. And I feel like that's an advantage of novels and stories that you might not get in other mediums, because you just immediately feel close to a character. It's a very close third-person narrative. You're very close to Geeta, you're inside her head and her heart. And I think that isolation also was hitting close to home for me because I wrote this novel in 2020's pandemic, and I'm sure all of us were feeling a bit lonely. And while I don't think I've ever been a social pariah, I can identify with feeling removed from friends and loved ones. And so I think it was those two things working in conjunction where Geeta was born.
"The story was always going to be a novel, it just needed to wait for me to realize that."
KJ: Well, I love how you brought these characters to life. I'm sure they kept you great company during that time. So, I read in an interview that you are a big fan of The Golden Girls and that that might have come into play in this novel. Can you tell me a little bit about how The Golden Girls inspired The Bandit Queens?
PS: Absolutely. I think you just saw my reaction when you mentioned Golden Girls. Yeah, I'm delighted by them. Absolutely. I watched and rewatched more times than I should admit. That show taught me how to be funny. I think it taught me to have the banter between the women where sometimes they're a little abusive and saucy with each other, but they'll be there for each other. There's loyalty, there's fierce loyalty there, as well as jabs at each other's flaws.
KJ: Lots of jabs [laughs].
PS: Lots of jabs at each other's flaws. And I think, in the balance of female friendship, you have both sides of that coin. You have the snark and you have the "Oh, I would do anything for you. Just show me where the bodies are and we will bury them together." And The Golden Girls absolutely taught me that kind of comedy. Now that I think about it, I think during 2020, I was rewatching that show with my now-fiancé, because I was introducing him to the girls. So, I'm sure those influences were creeping into the narrative.
KJ: Well, congratulations on your upcoming wedding.
PS: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
KJ: And for getting someone else invested in The Golden Girls. I'm actually rewatching with my kids and they also love it. It's, like, timeless. They crack up.
PS: I'm so happy to hear that there’ll be future generations who will appreciate and enjoy it because it has aged really well, especially compared to other shows of that time, where sometimes you might feel a little cringey at the jokes. But Golden Girls for the overwhelming most part has just treated such issues and people with sensitivity that it's aged quite well.
KJ: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the characters that you bring to life, their dynamics are so interesting in the way that they're all very different. But I have to give a shoutout to my favorite, which is Saloni, who I just, I mean, that character is delightful. I don't want to give too many spoilers, but I'm curious how much Saloni was part of the original. Like, how did this story begin? Did it begin with Geeta, did it begin with the friendship with Saloni? Was she always part of this narrative?
PS: Saloni was a minor character in an initial draft. This novel began as a short story in 2013. And in that brief short story, the real dynamic was between Geeta and Farah. They were the main characters and the other women of the microloan group, Saloni included, were very tertiary. But when I reread the short story in 2020—I had shelved it for seven years—when I reread it, I looked at the animosity between Geeta and Saloni and I thought, "There's a history there. Why would they hate each other so much? There's a history there." And that's when the larger world unfolded. And I realized this is a novel. The story was always going to be a novel, it just needed to wait for me to realize that. So, I returned to it. And then Geeta and Saloni just, their dynamic and their former-friendship-turned-nemeses, that leapt off the page and I realized there was something deeper there. And then the triangle of Farah, Geeta, and Saloni was born.
KJ: So, that's so interesting that it started as a short story and that it really started with this microloan group. One of the things that I also really love is, although the setting might be not as familiar to a Western audience, and the microloan group, I wasn't even familiar with that concept, and I like the way you don't really overexplain, but the emotions that they go through and the injustices that they experience as women are pretty universally relatable. So, the novel is set in a small, unnamed village in India. Can you tell us a little bit about the inspiration for the setting? It feels like a place that you know very well.
PS: Yes. I did a lot of research, but the village is really a composite of various places I've been, because it's a nice sneaky trick of fiction that you’re not beholden to one place if you just invent a place. I was in India in 2013 visiting my father and my brother and my extended family. And at that point, my father was involved in helping finance a microloan group in a village outside of the city where my family lives. So, my family's from Gujarat. And this village was a day trip away. So, we went and we sat in and observed a loan meeting, and that's when I thought, “Wow, this is something really special. This is unique.” And so the setting would be based upon that trip, and then I filled in the world with other details from various villages in Gujarat.
KJ: So I do want to talk about, this being Audible, the audiobook performance. The audiobook is narrated by the amazing performer Soneela Nankani. She's narrated books like Namrata Patel's The Candid Life of Meena Dave, S.A. Chakraborty's City of Brass. I'm curious if you had any input into the casting or the production, if there was anything important for you to get right here?
PS: I think the quick, easy answer is various pronunciations, because there's a mixture of Hindi but also Gujarati, and Hindi is more national and Gujarati is very specific to the state. Pronunciation was clearly going to be important. But really, she's such a force and such a talent that the minute I heard a brief clip, I knew. I was like, "She was meant to read this book." The vigor and that acting and intensity and humor that she immediately brought. I was like, "Okay, this is it."
KJ: Right. Speaking of Soneela Nankani, I'm going to play just a little clip. It's a little scene between Geeta and Saloni, just so our listeners can hear.
"When did everyone in this village get so casual about murder?”
“They do a million things worse than murder to us every day all over the world and no one blinks.”
“We're not the Gram Panchayat that we can decide fates like this.”
“Aren't we though? We're not being cruel or arbitrary here. It's a judicious punishment, Geeta, based on their crimes. Karma."
Saloni regally stretched her arms toward the heavens, her head tipped back. “We are facilitators of karma.”
“Isn't karma for the next life, not this one?"
Saloni's hands fell. "You're always so pedantic."
KJ: I just think that's so funny [laughs].
PS: So fantastic. Just, like, the light she infuses, it's, oh, it's amazing.
KJ: Yeah. Soneela is incredible. So, speaking of the facilitators of karma and them saying that they are just doing kind of what they're justified in doing, I want to talk about some of the sexism themes in this book. We've seen a lot of novels recently that combine women's empowerment with murder and revenge, and often with comedy. This is one of my favorite sub-genres. We see them often in fiction, not so much in real life. We're going to talk about Phoolan Devi, but I'm curious what your take is on this genre overall. Is this ultimately kind of a revenge fantasy, or do you think there are some real takeaways that we can use to fight the patriarchy?
PS: I think I was using extremes to make a point. I don't think I condone—I think there's a line about knocking out everyone we don't like, like it's Indian Idol, like a singing competition. And I think that there are limits, but the idea is that these extremes that are placed on these women, when they're backed into a corner, their response will be extreme in kind. And when you find yourself rooting for them, then it makes you examine: What position have we placed these women that they feel this is their only out? And so the exaggeration, the hyperbole was hopefully to underscore my point of, if you find your moral scale sliding and to the point where you're rooting for revenge, then we need to examine the circumstances that lead to that.
KJ: Right. And I think you do a really good job, too, of, there's some moral relativity happening where, early on in the novel, Geeta saves these dogs who are being tortured, and in a really brave way. They're at this bootlegger's house and she just goes and frees them. But it's really interesting to see that while she's kind of in the midst of plotting to kill human men.
PS: Right. She's not even a dog person at the beginning of the novel, but she sees this injustice being perpetrated on these helpless creatures. These creatures haven't done anything. The dogs are innocent. But the men that these women seek justice or revenge upon, they are not so innocent. And that's how you find yourself rooting for them to get their just desserts.
KJ: So, the real-life historical figure Phoolan Devi is a part of this novel. I had never heard her story, incredibly, before listening to your book. But she's a big part of the book and for Geeta, and I think maybe in your inspiration. I'm curious how she came to inform the novel and what you think folks should know about her.
PS: Well, Phoolan Devi lived a very brief but just an extraordinary life. And speaking of extremes, like we just were, she lived a life divided by crazy extremes. She committed her first act of protest at the very tender age of 10. And from then on it was clear that she was an irrepressible spirit, which is likely why her family married her off to a much older man. She was 11, he was 33. The marriage was abusive. She ran away, was sent back to him until she ultimately joined a gang. And this gang had upper caste members and also lower caste members such as Phoolan, because she was born a Dalit woman. And there was strife amongst the gang based upon caste. It was a very divisive topic. And, ultimately, she committed a series of crimes and was subjected to a series of horrific crimes before she was ultimately jailed. And after being imprisoned for 11 years, she was released and then she joined politics and became a female-rights activist. And then, unfortunately, she was assassinated by the time she was 37.
"When you find yourself rooting for them, then it makes you examine: What position have we placed these women that they feel this is their only out?"
So just a brief life packed with advocacy and violence and victimization and agency. It's an incredible story, and I touch upon it in the novel because this real-life, larger-than-life character is a source of inspiration for Geeta. And I was wary about including the real-life story of Phoolan Devi, because lots of adaptations of her life have been made. Some with her consent, some without. And I did not want to exploit her story for my own use, for my own purposes, because I didn't want to be disrespectful. I wanted to pay homage. I wanted to draw attention to her story without taking it. Ultimately, when I was writing Geeta, she starts off in such a lonely position that I thought for that character you'd have to pull from a power source larger than you in order to get up every day, in order to face the society that treats you poorly, that talks about you behind your back. I thought she needed inspiration from a legend, from a myth. That became a way to incorporate Phoolan's story into Geeta's while respecting her.
KJ: Right. She lived such a brief life. I looked this up and I was shocked when I saw that she served in government and then all these things happened to her before she was 40. And I had kind of a similar reaction with Geeta early on in the book, because men are always referring to her as old, she's always getting jabbed about being an old woman. So I was like, “How old is she?” And then at one point you say she's in her late 30s. And I was like, “oh.” So, it's just interesting to see how, I mean, age is relative all over, but the expectations that people put on women, and for Phoolan to be married off at 11 and then to die at 37. You show a lot of overlapping sexism with ageism, with casteism, and it’s very effective.
PS: Yeah, and that ageism is for women, right? It's a sexist part. And, yes, it is a source of a hopeful comedy where she's constantly getting jabbed by men about her advanced age and whatnot. And then you find out her actual age, and you're like, "This is ridiculous," as it's meant to be. But women in their late 30s in this village, in this society, and actually it's more ubiquitous than just this village and this society, but women past a certain age are maybe dismissed or invisible and not seen as desirable. Or maybe they've transitioned into, okay, now you're an auntie or you're a mother, so you're no longer the young nubile woman that calls this male gaze or whatnot. And I think that kind of very subtle sexism is throughout the novel.
KJ: Yeah. But sometimes there is this—
PS: It's not so subtle [laughs].
KJ: Right [laughs]. And they're able to use it to their advantage as well, which is, that's also really empowering. Like maybe once you become invisible, you can do whatever you want.
PS: Yeah. I think there's a thread throughout the entire book about using whatever prejudices people have against you to your advantage and to your economic profit. Geeta is rumored to be all sorts of things, including a witch, and she uses that superstition to pump up her business. There's another character in the novel, Khushi, who is a Dalit woman, and therefore she's not allowed to be part of the microloan group, but she uses the prejudices against her caste to her economic benefit. And so a lot of the novel is about the misconceptions these characters have about each other, and a lot of it is about using those misconceptions to your advantage, and then, ultimately, about second chances and shattering those conceptions to band together.
KJ: Yeah. I mean, it's very realistic. It's very true to life. So, speaking of life, I just want to ask a couple questions about your real life. This is your debut novel, which is incredible, but even more incredible is that you're also a practicing attorney. I'm curious if your legal expertise came into play in this novel, or is this like a totally different outlet for you?
PS: It definitely uses a different side of my brain. I'm a contract attorney, so I do a lot of writing, but it's a different kind of writing. And in terms of, you know, there's a lot of crime, there's a crime aspect to this novel, and I don't really remember criminal law from law school. It was a really long time ago. But what's fun about this novel, I hope, is that there's a running joke about a criminal procedure show. They refer to it all the time, and that's how they get all their knowledge, whether it's accurate or not.
"A lot of the novel is about the misconceptions these characters have about each other, and a lot of it is about using those misconceptions to your advantage, and then, ultimately, about second chances and shattering those conceptions to band together."
KJ: Yes.
PS: And I felt like that was a ubiquitous matter because we have lots of criminal procedure shows, so even if a reader isn't familiar with this Indian one, they definitely might know CSI or Law & Order, and so they're in on that joke without necessarily knowing the ins and outs of the Indian procedural. So, I would say that while my criminal law experience is very minimal, the procedural shows helped me.
KJ: Okay. So, you're just like the rest of us.
PS: Precisely. Yes.
KJ: Okay. And then I can't help but mention that you've studied with some incredible writers: Elizabeth McCracken, Alexander Chee, Téa Obreht. I mean, an amazing, really impressive list of folks that you've worked with. Can you tell us about some of your literary influences that you especially love?
PS: Absolutely. I read Zadie Smith's White Teeth at I think the perfect time in my, not only my life, but my writing career. And that humor and that sweeping story spoke to me. I love it so much. I returned to it frequently, especially a very particular scene when I'm seeking comedy in my own writing, especially in dialogue. And I feel like she's been an incredible influence on my work.
KJ: Oh, wow. I definitely see those parallels. Yeah.
PS: Oh, that is very flattering for me. Thank you.
KJ: Yeah, no, no, it's true.
PS: I read pretty voraciously, but my tastes are all over the place. But in terms of influencing my own writing, because there is a comedic element, I also love Andrew Sean Greer's Less, and the sequel that came out last year, Less Is Lost. I feel like with putting comedy on page, especially physical comedy, those two books taught me a lot.
KJ: Wow. Everything is better when it's funny. Thank you so much for talking to us today about your debut novel. I'm so excited for people to check it out. Before we go, is there anything that you're working on next? I know you have a lot going on with your law career and the new book, but is there anything exciting we can expect from you in the future that you can tease for us?
PS: I hope so. I am working on a manuscript right now. It follows the same dark comedic humor. It is set in India. And I don't outline, and so part of that occupational hazard is that I'm not sure where things are going, so it's really hard to talk about what it is because "I'm not sure yet" is the honest answer. And then once I figure out where it's going, I can go back and kind of pretend like I knew it all along in the rewrite. Thank goodness for rewrites.
KJ: Well, I'm excited to hear there's more coming. I'm very excited for people to discover this novel. It's incredible. Thank you so much, Parini Shroff. The Bandit Queens is available on Audible now.
PS: Thank you so much, Kat.
