Legendary cowboy Grant Golliher on how to “Think Like a Horse”

Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.

Melissa Bendixen: Hi listeners, this is Audible Editor Melissa Bendixen and here with me today is Grant Golliher, author of Think Like a Horse: Lessons in Life, Leadership, and Empathy from an Unconventional Cowboy. Welcome, Grant.

Grant Golliher: Great to be with you.

MB: Listeners, Grant has been training horses for more than 40 years, and he uses a method of horse whispering that means he can gentle and gain the trust of an unbroken horse without the use of forceful or fearful tactics. Grant is the owner of the Diamond Cross Ranch in Wyoming, which hosts retreats for Fortune 500 companies. Over the years, Grant's demonstrations in horse whispering have imparted valuable lessons on leadership and communication to leaders and CEOs. And now, with Think Like a Horse, he's bringing his hard-won wisdom to anyone who would like to listen.

So, first, Grant, I have to know, is that your horse Freckles on the cover?

GG: That is. Freckles is 28 years old now. He's kind of retired. He's been the best horse I've ever had in my life. And everybody says if you get one great one, you're very fortunate. He was my great one.

MB: I became so fond of him after all the stories you told us about him over the course of Think Like a Horse. I was curious how he's doing now. So, he's living a good retired life?

GG: He is. We're just trying to keep him healthy. He's got some heart issues, so we can't ride him anymore, but we use him at the ranch to greet people. And he's glad to still be a part of the team. Although, I sure miss him.

MB: Mmm, yeah. What made you want to bring your story and your lessons to us now and in this format with Think Like a Horse?

GG: Well, really, after 25 years of doing this and working with corporate America and just the amazing people that we've had come here to Jackson Hole to the ranch, it's just been a ride that, I can hardly believe that I got to do this. I'm getting a little long in the tooth, and before retirement I wanted to get this out in a book form because this is wisdom that I believe the whole world needs.

And we have seen this, Melissa, over the years, how people that are around this, they become better people. It's helped me a lot, first of all, to be a better person, a better father, a better employer. But it's just been amazing the leaders that we have got to be around over the years, and we've learned more from them, I think, than they have from us. But they really get it. They just say, “This is amazing. It fits life, it fits leadership, it fits so many aspects of dealing day to day, whether it's employees or team building, things like that.” So, we have seen it, and I don't want to let it go. I don't want it to be that when I retire, it's gone. I wanted to get this wisdom out there the best I could.

MB: Yeah, as a person who used to live in a big city and is just now getting into horse stuff, I thought it was really fascinating. Listeners can't see the video, but your wife, Jane, is sitting next to you right now, and I know she had a hand in the writing of Think Like a Horse. What was it like working together on the writing process for you two?

Jane Golliher: [Laughing] Well, that's a great question. For one thing, how we actually started the writing of the book is it was a winter when all of our equipment broke down. We work six months out of the year, and we save our money so we can do a few fun things in the winter. And when everything broke down, our money went out the door. So, we said, “Well, maybe we should start writing our book.” We stayed home and every day Grant told different stories of his life, and I typed it and we began this journey.

MB: And what a journey it was.

GG: It's really been the last 12 years. It's been 12 years in writing this book. Fortunately, we've had some help from Ellen, our writer that we just loved working with. But really, as we did these corporate events here, people would watch it and they'd love it and then afterwards they'd say, “When are you gonna write a book?” And we decided, well, maybe that was God speaking. We thought, well, we'd better write a book. And once Jane got that in her head, the Feuzes [Jane’s family] are the most determined people I've ever met. They homesteaded in the Jackson Hole valley here and made it from nothing. So, her determination just to get this down and work through it, I would never have done this without her. She's my partner in crime.

Jane: "We learned it long ago: touch the heart, you'll touch them forever."

It was hard to put into words some of these things and then really be transparent about a lot of my mistakes that I've made through the years with horses and with people. But it is what we teach, because the round pen that we put a horse in, it's really out in the open so everybody can see. It's not a show, it's a live demonstration of what we do working with young horses or troubled horses and helping them advance and become the best that they can be.

MB: Think Like a Horse is organized around a series of lessons in communication, boundaries, fairness, trust, and respect. Each topic is illustrated by a saying or phrase that captures the lesson in a nutshell. Things like “be as soft as you can but as firm as necessary” on boundaries. And “honor the slightest try and the smallest change” on trust and respect. I really like that one. Did writing these lessons down clarify your thinking around them in any way?

GG: These are lessons that we really came up with through the years, and we have spent literally nights awake talking about how what we learned from the horse fits life. What we have seen is that people—let's just say they're spoiling their child. We all see that around us. The child who's undisciplined and a bit of a brat. You can't just tell them, “You're spoiling your child.” Most of us wouldn't say that, and it wouldn't do any good; it would just be critical. But when they see how you have to work with a horse—that there are consequences with the horse for wrong choices, there are rewards for right choices, yet you give the horse the freedom to choose. Pretty soon they go, “Oh, I see that, that's what I'm doing with my child.”

So, I don't like to tell people what they need to see or learn; I want them to see it. I want the whole world to be able to see what happens when you apply these principles and this philosophy. I really believe that it is a philosophy more than a methodology. [Legendary horseman] Tom Dorrance used to say it's so much about life. And back then I didn't really care about that, I just wanted to be a better horse trainer so I could make more money selling horses. But over the years, I've come to realize how much it is about our lives and the lessons that we can learn. So, I've tried to categorize some of it and break it down.

I believe it's ancient wisdom. There have always been people that have been very good at this, but it's been secretive. Back when I was a kid, I never forget reading about these guys that had a special talent with a horse, that would walk in a barn with a rogue horse that people were terrified of, that was dangerous, and come out with an obedient, gentle horse.

But it was secretive, they wouldn't tell their secret because they didn't want anybody to know. What Ray Hunt did and Tom and then some of his protégés, they did this out in the open for all of us to see. I'd been training horses for years and had quite a bit of success. But when I saw what Ray Hunt could do when he took the bridle off his horse and could just make it turn its head just by nothing, like the horse was reading his mind, that fascinated me because I couldn't do that. To me, it was all about making the horse do something, and Ray said, “You don't make them, you get them to do it. You set things up and let them find it, and then you congratulate them for finding it.”

Jane Golliher: If I could add one thing as a very recent example. We had two photographers from Spain here last week and they saw Grant's demonstration. And the one gentleman told me about his son who through COVID has gotten very frantic and he's not himself anymore. He's 14 years old. And as he told me this, he had tears in his eyes. But what he told me is he saw how he could help his son through Grant's demonstration. And when they see a lesson, it touches their heart not just their emotions. That's what we tried to do with the book with our stories, is make you laugh, make you cry, because textbooks don't do it. And Grant's demonstration live has always touched people's heart, but you can only reach a small audience here at the ranch. We learned it long ago: touch the heart, you'll touch them forever.

GG: And it is really about making a difference. We have a beautiful property here. We have a full view of the Tetons. It's the prettiest thing right now. We're looking out and into the snow-capped Tetons and the green fields. It's just wonderful to get to share that. And what people experience when they come here, they see the mountains and then I have the demonstration and we tend to offer something really special. I've had youngsters come here and say that they were never the same because they realized that following their dreams was a key to their life fulfillment rather than just chasing money.

We have an employee right now that read my book and he said it inspired him to leave the job that he hated and pursue being a cowboy. He's not very good yet, he's got a lot to work on, but he's happy. It's a lot of fun just having an effect on people's lives. It's very fulfilling to make a difference. It's a lot more fulfilling to help a person that is gonna have horses or dogs or cats or kids. And for the rest of their life, they're gonna make a difference. And then, if you have a leader that affects a lot of people and you affect them, then you're making a bigger impact. We just feel like it's an opportunity to get this out to the whole world.

MB: Yeah, there is something about hearing these principles be enacted from the relationship between a horse and a person that does make it seem very clear.

It's really fascinating to hear you tell me your story now in person, because I got so comfortable with Dean Gallagher's narration that I kind of almost forgot that he wasn't you. I wanted to ask you, what does it feel like to hear him perform your words, and in a way hear him essentially embody you almost like he's an actor playing you in a biopic?

GG: Well, we listened to several voices and we picked him because he sounded probably the most like how I would talk. We did feel like his voice was authentic the way he read it, and it would be like me not embellishing. What you see is what you get with me. And we felt like his voice was the closest to mine that we could come up with. His name's similar too.

Jane Golliher: Oh yeah, that's true.

MB: You spend a lot of time talking about boundaries and how every good relationship has clear boundaries. What would you say to someone in the workplace, particularly to those of us who work from home, to help us set that work-life balance and set those boundaries?

GG: Yeah, I think clear boundaries are very important. It's really easy to work for somebody that has clear, consistent boundaries. It's when they're vague that, you know, one day something's fine and the next day they blow their top over it or yell at you. The horse is such a good example. If you're not clear with your boundaries, he becomes insecure. Just be clear about what you want and what you expect. And that's very easy to work for people like that. But people that are vague with their boundaries, it does create an insecurity.

Grant: "If you compromise your boundaries for the sake of the relationship, you'll ultimately lose your relationship."

I think it's so important also to learn—and I think the horse really shows us because he's very observant—is to read people's body language and know what their boundaries are based on that. You just become more sensitive to other people's boundaries and respectful of them. A lot of this is just about relationships, a little healthier, and we all know people that have terrible boundaries and they're not fun to be around.

MB: Do you think feel comes into a lot this? And then also, could you describe very shortly what feel is for listeners who might not know?

GG: Feel is something that's hard to explain. My friend Dave, in the book, put it like driving. The first time you learn how to drive a vehicle with a clutch, you have to have that feeling as you let out on the clutch; you're pushing in the gas the same time and you don't want to jerk the vehicle or stall it. I thought that was a pretty good analogy. One of the things that we teach people is how to lead a horse. And people immediately wanna grab the horse right under the chin with no slack so they can control this big animal. The animal doesn't feel any freedom in that so he gets resistant. So, we teach them to give some rope and to take hold of the slack, put a little pressure until the animal starts to move and then release the pressure. And pretty soon the animal begins to follow that feel without a lot of weight or resistance. I liken it a lot to a dance. If you've ever danced with a good dance partner, he's not jerking you around or rough with you, but he has strong leadership. So, you're really learning to dance with your horse.

These are a lot of examples I see in the human that we could be better at with our feel and communication. Our eye contact, all of that. In a lot of ways, this all goes together—boundaries, feel. When you learn it from a horse you become better as a human to read and to follow that kind of a principle.

MB: Yeah. A big idea throughout Think Like a Horse is trust. We have the story of Neil, the homeless man who became a valuable ranch hand to you and your family. It's a heartwarming story. And, indeed, I noticed a running theme throughout Think Like a Horse that you will often step up for the underdogs or the downtrodden. How do you know when it's right to trust a person or a horse? And what do you hope listeners take away from your story about trust?

GG: I think with people, of course, it comes down to experience. Like I said, I got a lot of gratitude out of taking a horse that nobody wants and making something special out of it, and that's how I got started. But I guess I've carried it over to people too. I just have a soft spot in my heart for people that have potential but they're having a rough time of it.

We've had several employees like that, that we saw their potential but they weren't doing well in life for whatever reason. I mean, we have a guy working for us right now, he worked for us for 10 years and he left, finally retired, and then he couldn't stand to stay away so he came back [laughing]. And it's really great to have him back. But he would say that over the years because we treated him like a horse, gave him the freedom to make mistakes, didn't criticize him, because he was kind of beat down. We encouraged the good, made him a part of our family, part of the team and lifted him up. We gave him a belt buckle in one year that said “Top Hand.” And it brought him out to who he really was. And he just turned into the greatest hand you can imagine, extremely loyal to the outfit. It's very rewarding to see that. And it really is about trust, you know. Trust really comes, I think, from respect.

Jane Golliher: Mm-hmm.

GG: And I see it in the horses, they do it. They don't trust you if they don't respect you, and they don't trust another horse if they don't respect that horse. Respect always comes before friendship with horses, and I think it really does with us. You can't just expect somebody to trust you, you have to earn their respect first. And it's not all about just being kind and soft, it's about being strong and firm. Of course, we used it with our kids growing up, especially as teenagers. We feel it's probably the strongest message we have in this book is really parenting. Because we're all leaders; if you're a parent you're a leader and you have to be the leader. And I just feel like too many parents now are not the leader; their kids are the leader. And they're seeing the damage from that. And when you treat a horse that way, I say you're creating a monster. If you're afraid to discipline because you want the horse to like you, then you're gonna end up hating the horse. If you compromise your boundaries for the sake of the relationship, you'll ultimately lose your relationship.

I've learned a lot of these things the hard way. If a horse kicks you, you'll never forget what that horse felt like just before he kicked you. I'll never forget that we were swimming off the coast of Hawaii, in Maui. I'm just bobbing along out there, and this surfer comes along and he says, “You're about to get caught in a rip tide and taken out to the ocean.” I'm like, “Well, thank you for telling me that.” He said, “You better swim that way now.” You know, that's what we're trying to do, too, with this book. I really feel like, in many ways, and I think people would agree, we're going the wrong way as a society. The yellow light is blinking, and the red light's starting to blink. And we need to correct some things, and we need to bring some balance.

MB: So, in relation to media and growing up in this modern world, where sometimes it can feel hard to connect with someone person-to-person, especially for young people nowadays who've grown up with social media. It can be hard to connect with someone, and yet we share so much of ourselves with the internet, so there's kind of this push/pull here. What's your hope for how young people relate to one another in taking into account the lessons you have in Think Like a Horse?

GG: I would hope that the young people would see themselves in this and maybe make a few corrections. Some traditions of the past really do need to go, there's no question about that. But some are very valuable and we need to go back to those. Like, “your word is your bond” or “you say what you mean.” I'm hoping, and I've seen it, particularly in young people, that when they see a horse get worked, they begin to get their perspective a little different. It kind of wins their heart over. And they realize that maybe there is something there to work at.

I really commend this generation; they are so fast and so smart. Yet, they've lost a little bit of what we learned working with stock. And it used to be that everybody had a grandfather that had a farm that you could go take your friends and be around livestock and learn a few things. Nowadays, that's just passed, so we just don't see that so much. So, I think they've lost something in communication, for example eye contact. To me, it's disrespect when a young person doesn't look at an older person and give them the time of day.

MB: What do you think we can do about that?

GG: You never can really help people by criticizing them. So, what we do is really build on the good, just like we do with a horse. We don't just go after what's wrong. We build on the good, but we don't ignore the problems either. We're willing to confront. If we're just critical all the time, we're not gonna change anybody. Ray Hunt used to say, "Build on the horse’s self-esteem."

Grant: "What we do is really build on the good, just like we do with a horse. We don't just go after what's wrong."

Jane Golliher: When our son Peter was in high school, he was very bright, very popular, great grades, but he just loved to have fun and he didn't set good boundaries. So, with our own children we really tried to have an understanding of their gifts and what they were called to, and speak to that as opposed to the elephant on the table, so to speak.

GG: My own dad was very verbally abusive, very critical, particularly to my older brother for some reason. And my older brother's just a wonderful guy. He helps a lot of kids, he has a nonprofit in LA, and he rescues kids off the streets and just is amazing. My dad was always just saying, “Clay, you're gonna grow up to be worthless, and you're a pig, and you're a slob” and just terrible words coming from a father. And, actually, he ended up being a lot of those things until he was able to get help and turn his own life around.

A lot of what we learn comes from dysfunction. But that doesn't mean they have to stay that way or be the product of that. You can take your hand and slap a horse in the face and he'll never forget that. If you can tell a young person or somebody that respects you, admires you, that they're no good or whatever, you just slapped them in the face and they will never forget that. So, we've got to be careful what we say. We've got to choose our words, particularly around those that are looking up to us.

Jane Golliher: Mm-hmm.

GG: I say build on the good, and that gives you the right to go after some of the weaknesses.

MB: Well, I want to close with the way that you close Think Like a Horse, saying that you never want to be the person with more answers than questions. While I have many questions more for you, my final question will be, what are you curious to learn next, and what excites you right now intellectually?

GG: I think this is a never-ending journey. I'll be 65 this year, and I've been working with animals, horses and mules, dogs, since I was a kid. So really 60 years-plus of working them. And I don't mean just now and then, I mean six days a week for the rest of my whole life. I have just come to the conclusion that you never stop learning. And you have to get to a point sometimes in your life where you just realize you don't know it all, and there's a whole new world that will open up to you. I'm still learning. I still look to those that I feel may have something that I need to learn from.

But good leaders, I think, are always wanting to get better. A good horseman is always wanting to get better. We're looking for that little gold nugget that can just change one little thing. And I've gone to clinics of good horsemen and only come home with one little thing, but that changed everything. So, I think being humble enough to say that “I don't know it all and I'd like to learn some more on this journey.”

MB: Grant and Jane, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today, and to offer some sneak-peak insights from Think Like a Horse.

GG: It's great to be with you, thank you.

Jane Golliher: Yeah, thank you so much. We really enjoyed it.

MB: Listeners, you can get Think Like a Horse: Lessons in Life, Leadership, and Empathy from an Unconventional Cowboy on Audible now.