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Alanna McAuliffe: Hi there, listeners. I'm Audible's memoir editor Alanna McAuliffe, and today it is my distinct privilege and pleasure to be speaking with Nobel Peace Prize-nominated activist Amanda Nguyen on her stunning, necessary debut, Saving Five. Amanda, welcome.
Amanda Nguyen: Thank you so much for having me.
AM: Thank you so much for being here. For many of those listening in, it will not be the first time they've heard of your endeavors. From your work on the Sexual Assault Survivors Rights Act, to your founding of the nonprofit organization Rise, to speaking engagements ranging from TED to the Women's March, you've been in the public eye for over a decade. Why did now feel like the right time to share your story with Saving Five?
AN: I remember after I passed the United Nations General Assembly resolution, which took six years to pass—the federal law in the US only took six months, so really a difference of magnitude that I did not expect. But after I passed the United Nations resolution, it felt like I had kept my promise to survivors and that I could finally take the time to write it all down. From when I started my activism journey to that moment at the United Nations, there was never a moment that wasn't full of just go, go, go. So after I passed it, I felt like, "All right, I can finally take a pause after the world has voted on our issue and now write it down so that other people can know what to do."
AM: Well, in addition to the timing, I'm also really curious about the composition of your memoir. Your book is a particular standout for its use of this really effective, emotionally resonant rhetorical device that blends traditional memoir storytelling with this metaphorical, almost fantasy at times narrative that follows four versions of yourself at ages 30, 22, 15, and 5, as they embark on this healing-journey road trip together through the stages of grief. What inspired you to tell your story in this particular way, and what was it like revisiting your psyche at different stages of your life?
AN: Thank you so much for resonating with that, because it was a real risk to write it that way. I was told by many very well-intentioned, helpful people that memoir writing is a certain way, and it should stick to that way. But I think literature is an incredible machine of empathy, and I have left parts of my soul through the text of this book. So, I wrote it in a way that reflects my soul, which is, yes, this is, in the traditional memoir sense, step-by-step what happened from my rape to passing my first law. But the magical fantasy part is a reflection of how I process my grief and the journey that it really took for me to acknowledge that I was never alone, that all parts of myself should be honored and have lessons to give, including each stage of grief.
"I hope everyone reading this can embark on their own healing journey and realize that they grew up to be the person who could save themselves at five years old."
AM: Absolutely. Who amongst us hasn't imagined what it would be like to go back in time and have a conversation with our younger selves and be able to empathize with that version of ourselves in that particular moment? So, I'm really excited for listeners to get to hear that. I do also want to ask about the narration of your audiobook. It's performed by actor Sura Siu, with the exception of the author's note in the final chapter. Her performance is incredible. It's so authentic. Why did you choose to have a narrator perform your story?
AN: The simple answer is I didn't want to cry all the time. It was so painful for me to put these words down on paper. My writing process was that I cried every day. In fact, I think my editor told me some parts of the book, "Hey, can you take out this crying scene? You're crying too much [laughs]. It will lessen the impact.” And I was like, "All right, I'll listen to you." It was really hard. Writing this memoir in itself was a healing process and it took me back to places that were very, very dark and to moments where even now when I am even thinking about the fact that I was writing it and how I placed myself in these situations, it is painful. I'm so grateful to be able to not have to narrate it. That's the true reason. And the other reason, equally as important, is that she is such a good voice actor, a just incredible performer. I knew that she would be able to nail the different characters in that fantasy storyline in a way that I couldn't. So, I'm really grateful.
AM: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. The voice she does for the five-year-old version of yourself is so sweet and compelling, and it really just puts you in that moment and mindset. I definitely hear that. The value of a good narrator cannot be overstated.
AN: Also, part of my training, astronaut training, is a lot of cardio. A part of how I get through it is by listening to audiobooks. I listened to her because she narrates Crescent City. And so when she had been one of the choices, it was honestly such a fun thing to see because I was like, "Oh, my gosh.” She voices one of these characters that I had been listening to for some time. It was really fun to have that voice also be me in my memoir.
AM: I can only imagine how thrilling it must be to have a narrator that you've enjoyed and you've appreciated as a listener and then have them tell your life story. That must be such an amazing experience. And because you've shared with us that you're an audiobook listener, I do have to ask, because your memoir and the story contained therein is such a testament to the power of sharing lived experience, do you have any personal favorite audiobooks or podcasts that you'd recommend to listeners?
AN: I listen to so many. It's part of my daily life. When I do my daily walks, I'm listening to audiobooks. I'm currently listening to, again, Born a Crime. Trevor Noah does such an incredible job. He's such a good performer, and his writing and his narration—
AM: Yeah, that's like the gold standard for memoir. Exceptional.
AN: So good. I also both read physically and then listened to Educated by Tara Westover. I know that for Tara, she also had somebody narrate as well. And, actually, that was really informative of why I decided to ask for professional help and somebody narrating because that person who did Educated was also phenomenal.
AM: Yeah, that's a great point. Educated’s narrated by star performer Julia Whelan. I do want to get back to this conversation that you touched on earlier about the content of your memoir and why it was so incredibly difficult, not only to put on paper but then to even think about recording. In Saving Five, you write, quote, "The worst thing that happened to me wasn't being raped. It was being betrayed by the United States criminal justice system." And, truly, you encountered a disheartening amount of setbacks that only compounded the trauma of your assault. How did your experience in fighting to secure the rights of sexual-assault survivors change your lens on survival and justice in America?
AN: I think it's not an understatement when I see the statistics of the conviction rates for sexual-assault cases in the United States, and the statistics are that only one percent of sexual assault cases that are reported result in a conviction. There are even hidden factors beyond that one percent. For instance, that's only the amount of those that have been reported. The vast majority of sexual assault cases are not reported. And I understand why. I went to the police. I went to the hospital. I did what survivors are told to do, and yet I was met with what I've now learned is called secondary retraumatization, when the systems that are supposed to be there for you, when the sacrosanct values that I grew up believing in that this country afforded to its people, was actually a lie. And to be faced with that, and also come from a background where my parents had left Vietnam; my family, in their words, sacrificed everything to find freedom in this country. It was such a jarring disconnect that I felt extraordinarily betrayed, but also compelled to do something about it, to change it.
AM: I can only imagine the ways in which encountering this ideal of the American Dream and what freedom and justice means in this country, how that might differ for someone who's looking at it through the lens of a first-generation American experience. In your memoir, you recount and confront this generational cycle of hardship where you demonstrate tremendous empathy for your parents and their own traumas as Vietnamese refugees, despite the hurt that you endured as a result of routine abuse throughout your upbringing. How did you go about detailing these multifaceted realities, whether they be confronting the American criminal justice system or coming to terms with what you experienced as a child with the perspective of adulthood?
AN: Yeah, actually, I wasn't going to write about my childhood at all. I talked to Tara about her process of writing Educated, and I asked her how she was able to write about people who had hurt her while they're still alive. She told me something that changed the entire trajectory of my book. She said to me, "Amanda, if I can forgive them for my upbringing, then they can forgive me for writing about it." And I realized, yes, this is our reality. This is our life. We lived this too. So, I wrote the book that I needed to, to save myself at five.
"It is such a rare thing for an activist to have an idea, to speak up about it, have their law pass, be credited for it, and then see its impact all within a lifetime."
The reason why it's titled Saving Five is beyond the fact that Five gets sick—the characters need to go save Five—is that I hope everyone reading this can embark on their own healing journey and realize that they grew up to be the person who could save themselves at five years old. It's with that lens of healing, of processing grief, and of wanting to share that process with others that I detailed the moments that I did in my memoir, from what it was like to discover the broken criminal justice system and what that felt like, to what it felt like to step into the United States Senate for the first time, to encounter the corruption there and also to find my voice, both in the real world, in this case standing up to the US government to fight for rape-survivor rights, or in my own head, in my own world, which is having these conversations with past versions of myself and having a reckoning of what it means to grow up and what it means to heal.
AM: Reflecting on the familial elements of your book, I will also say that sharing your family history is tremendously significant in that both of your parents were refugees. How does it feel to be able to share their deeply important stories with a wide audience as well?
AN: Yeah, I want to understand where their pain came from mainly because I wanted to understand the origins of my pain, the pain they inflicted on me. That is why I really embarked on this journey, to know how they were shaped, to see them not only as my biological parents but also as humans on their own journeys. I think one of the most difficult things that I've ever experienced is grieving someone who's still alive, and that's them. To love people who have hurt you. How is it that people can be both your hero and also the villains of your life? I know that that's an experience that many people, especially adults who've had a traumatic childhood, go through. It can be isolating because society, especially during the holidays, gives us this image that family is everything. So how do you navigate that?
The other thing I wrote this book for, in sharing this part of my past self, is that a lot of people may have assumed that I had really a solid backing from my family in order to fight for these rights. And that was the furthest thing from the truth. I think one of the most painful things was when they found out, against my will, because the hospital had called them to let them know I had a rape kit, and the way they reacted was to ask these questions, you know, "What were you drinking? Were you drinking? What were you wearing?" Victim-blaming questions.
It was very painful, but also very lonely to know that if I wanted to stand up for my rights, this would be a journey I would have to take without their support. But I really wrote it for anybody who is experiencing that, whether it be because they've survived sexual violence or for any other challenge that they may face, that you can still make it, even if you feel like your biological family's not behind you.
AM: Well, related to that feeling of not having parental support, there is this through-line in your story that you pull on again and again: the choice between career and all of the financial freedoms and emancipation that come alongside that, and the pursuit of justice. That said, later in your memoir, you muse on the fact that the skills you learned as a survivor and an activist actually worked in favor of your career development in aeronautics. How did your perspective on that either/or fallacy shift over time?
AN: That's such a great question. Yes, I do want to acknowledge that this is a choice and a very real-world one which has consequences, because I want to talk about giving empathy to those who did not make the choices that I did. Folks who, because of lack of resources, decided to forgo their own justice or delay their justice in order to have a career. The line I always use to survivors is “Justice is up to you to define.” So, maybe that is the criminal justice system. Maybe that is you thriving. Maybe that's you having joy. Whatever it is for you, that's a very personal choice. And that's because the justice system isn't built for us. So, I understand if people don't want to go that route.
For me, I knew that I had to answer the 22-year-old version of myself, the person who was raped. I needed to answer her pain and her hurt and honor that before I could move on. I also acknowledge that it is such a rare thing for an activist to have an idea, to speak up about it, have their law pass, be credited for it, and then see its impact all within a lifetime. And that journey for me has led to a lot of skills that, yes, have directly transferred into my astronaut journey and now my return to space. But I made the choice to authentically honor the parts of me that were screaming. I'm so grateful that it turned out the way that it did, because I know that for so many activists and advocates, that's not how the story ends.
AM: I think that's so well-said. There is such a deep well of humanity and a sense of community housed in your memoir. There's this constant refrain where you address abuse and sexual-violence survivors directly. From the dedication of your memoir, which is dedicated to every survivor, to the concluding words of “Never, never, never give up,” you make a point to express solidarity at every turn. If you could share any words with listeners who might be navigating those same pain points you once did, what would they be?
AN: I want any survivor to know who's listening that it will get better, that your voice is so powerful. In fact, it is so powerful, that is why it feels like society wants to silence it, because inherently they want to silence something that threatens it. In order for something to be threatened, it means there is inherent power behind that threat. But also, that no one is powerless when we come together, and no one is invisible when we demand to be seen. At the start of my journey, I had no intention of changing the world. I wanted to save my rape kit. Along the way, I found that people will listen. You are so valuable in your lived experience, and you are enough. That is enough in order for you to be qualified to talk about why the policies impacting your life should change.
I'll also share that when I left that hospital and I wrote down that promise to myself—"never, never, never give up”—I taped it and I looked at it every day to graduate. I looked at it when I was fighting for my rights in Congress, the United Nations. And every astronaut has a zero-G indicator when we hit space, something that's floating and lets us know that we've made it. And my zero-G indicator is that promise. So, I will be looking at it while I look over Earth, and that will be my full-circle moment, my healing journey. I want everyone, all survivors, to be able to be there with me in that moment. I hope to anyone who's ever had to delay a dream or defer, that they know they can honor the person they were before they were hurt, and that things do get better.
AM: That's incredibly moving and thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing your story as a whole. It's so, so important, and it demands to be heard, quite frankly.
AN: Thank you.
AM: In telling your story you made it clear that even through the agonies of your assault and the need to prioritize the pursuit of justice for yourself and other survivors, you never lost sight of that long-held dream to travel the stars with NASA. And now, as you shared in your moving epilogue, you're set to become the first Vietnamese woman and first Southeast Asian woman in space. What does this incredible milestone mean to you, both in this moment and in reflecting on those younger versions of yourself?
AN: I already feel choked up just thinking about it. And really the biggest thing that I'll be thinking of when I am in space is her—her at 5, at 15, at 22. All of the versions of myself that I wrote to, that we were able to make it through. Oh, this is why I couldn't do the narration, because I'm about to cry [laughs]. I'm actually operating two science missions when I'm up there. I will be thinking about the science that I'm doing, but I will also be carrying her dreams, the person I was before I was assaulted. I am hopeful that that moment again can be translated and inspire other people to know, whether they're survivors or whether they've ever had something that has come up and has made them have to choose something other than their dreams, that they can still make their dreams come true.
"No one is powerless when we come together, and no one is invisible when we demand to be seen."
AM: Well, to give you the opportunity to kind of geek out about your dream coming true, can you share anything with us about those scientific missions you mentioned?
AN: Yes, I'm happy to talk about my science missions. So, the first one is in partnership with the Vietnamese National Space Center. If you've ever listened to The Martian, it's pretty close to what Mark Watney does.
AM: You're going to be growing potatoes?
AN: Yeah, it's not potatoes, but I will be growing plants, and it's plant pathology. It's in partnership with Vietnamese biologists and also with the University of Wisconsin-Madison plant pathologists. So, testing how they react to microgravity within the flight profile. That's the first one. And then the second experiment that I'm doing is on women's health, on menstruation. Almost 90 percent of all astronauts have been men, and women in the beginning of NASA were not allowed to become astronauts. One of the reasons was because they said, "Oh, we don't know how menstruation will impact our astronauts in space." So I will be doing that research and testing different inorganic mediums for wound dressing. It's more than just menstruation, but that's the main reason why I'm doing it.
AM: But either way, it must be such a phenomenal full-circle moment to be fighting for women on Earth and in the stars.
AN: Yes. On Earth, off Earth, on Mars, all the things [laughs].
AM: Every planet. Every galaxy.
AN: Exactly.
AM: So, Amanda, as we wrap up our conversation today, I did want to return to the idea of reflecting on past versions of ourselves. Early on in your memoir, you briefly tease an 80-year-old version of yourself who offers a bit of support. If you can imagine yourself as that 80-year-old woman chatting with you in this moment, what would you hope she'd say about the life you led?
AN: You're going to make me cry. I hope she says, "I'm glad you are happy." I think that's the goal of at least my life, which is to live authentically as me, all parts of me. I think the 80-year-old person would say that I'm proud that you were able to honor all parts of you, and that we were able to do it, to live freely.
AM: That's beautiful. Now you're going to make me cry.
AN: I just, I hope listeners will ask themselves that question.
AM: I definitely have. I've been thinking a lot about my own versions of 5, 15, 22 and looking forward to 30, and what they may hold for me. So, Amanda, thank you so much for sharing your story and for taking the time to be here today.
AN: Of course. Thank you so much for listening.
AM: And I have to say, on behalf of all of us here at Audible, allow me to extend our best wishes for a successful launch and safe return on your upcoming journey towards the stars.
AN: Thank you. At first I thought you were going to say book launch. Which launch? [laughs] Thank you so much.
AM: Shuttle launch this time. Either way, we can't wait to see what's next for you on Earth and beyond. And listeners, you can get Saving Five on Audible now.
