Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic Arts

Bing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department.

[00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bing Predicted Game Success

Bing explains how walking into a studio could tell him whether a game would ship on time and be successful—drawing parallels to retail psychology and intuition.

[00:10:00] Meeting Trip Hawkins and Dreaming of Virtual Worlds

Bing recounts meeting Trip Hawkins at Stanford and discussing early ideas about creating a “virtual Disneyland,” which inspired their future at EA.

00:17:00] Why Bing Fell in Love with Games

He discusses his childhood fascination with puzzles, invented games, and the dream of living multiple lives through games, likening them to the metaverse.

[00:18:00] Steven Spielberg on Games vs. Movies

Bing recalls Spielberg’s take on video games as a “lean-in” medium compared to passive film watching, and how body language helped refine cinematic pacing.

[00:23:00] Designing the NASCAR Draft Meter to Win Over Critics

Bing talks about a near failure in NASCAR Racing’s development and how adding a visual “draft meter” salvaged the game’s perception and success.

[00:51:00] What Makes a Great Founder?

Bing shares his top insight into investing: founders who give you an insight you've never heard before are often the most successful.

[00:55:00] The Risk of Being 'Generally Right, Specifically Wrong'

He explains how being close to a great idea, but missing key details, can result in failure—coining the phrase “generally right, specifically wrong.”

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin Story

Kim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her joining Valve right out of college.

[00:04:37] The Birth of Portal: From Student Project to Valve

Kim explains how her DigiPen student project Narbacular Drop caught Valve’s attention and led to the creation of Portal.

[00:10:50] Working With Gabe Newell and Valve’s Culture

Kim describes Valve’s flat hierarchy, creative freedom, and how working with Gabe Newell shaped her career.

[00:14:08] Creative Constraints in Game Design

She shares how limits and constraints actually helped drive innovation in Portal’s level design.

[00:20:22] The Magic of Short Games: Why Portal Was Just Right

Kim reflects on why Portal was intentionally short and how the team prioritized player experience over game length.

[00:25:46] From Valve to Big Tech: Her Leap Into Cloud Gaming

She discusses her transition from traditional studios to roles at Amazon and Xbox, focusing on innovation in cloud gaming.

[00:33:10] Leadership Advice: Trust Your Gut and Advocate for Yourself

Kim offers advice for aspiring leaders in tech: trust your instincts, advocate for your ideas, and know your worth.

[00:42:15] Kim’s Hopes for the Future of Games

She envisions a future where games are more inclusive, emotionally resonant, and push the boundaries of storytelling.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week!

[00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash
Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.

[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Night Studios and Teaching at USC
Christian shares updates on founding Day for Night Studios, collaborating with legendary composer Grant Kirkhope, and teaching screenwriting at USC.

[00:15:00] – How Growing Up in Italy Shaped His Game Development Dreams
Christian discusses his early life in Italy, making camcorder movies, discovering Monkey Island, and finding a love for storytelling through games.

[00:27:00] – Early Struggles: Typing Code from Magazines and Hand-Me-Down Computers
He shares the challenges of learning basic programming on a Commodore 16 and ZX Spectrum without formal training or abundant resources.

[00:46:00] – Breaking Into Rockstar: Cold Email to Working on GTA III
Christian tells the story of how a spontaneous email to DMA Design led to his move to Scotland to help finish GTA III—despite having no prior open-world experience.

[00:53:00] – Designing Emergent Gameplay for GTA III
He explains how Rockstar embraced unintended player behavior, turning it into a core design philosophy that shaped GTA III’s legendary sandbox style.

[00:56:00] – Leading Design on Manhunt and Red Dead Redemption
After GTA III, Christian became the lead designer of Manhunt and helped shape the narrative and world-building of Red Dead Redemption.

[01:00:00] – The Price of Creative Passion: Burnout and Sacrifice
Christian reflects on the emotional and personal cost of spending five intense years building Red Dead Redemption, and whether true greatness requires full commitment.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505