Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic Arts

Bing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department.

[00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bing Predicted Game Success

Bing explains how walking into a studio could tell him whether a game would ship on time and be successful—drawing parallels to retail psychology and intuition.

[00:10:00] Meeting Trip Hawkins and Dreaming of Virtual Worlds

Bing recounts meeting Trip Hawkins at Stanford and discussing early ideas about creating a “virtual Disneyland,” which inspired their future at EA.

00:17:00] Why Bing Fell in Love with Games

He discusses his childhood fascination with puzzles, invented games, and the dream of living multiple lives through games, likening them to the metaverse.

[00:18:00] Steven Spielberg on Games vs. Movies

Bing recalls Spielberg’s take on video games as a “lean-in” medium compared to passive film watching, and how body language helped refine cinematic pacing.

[00:23:00] Designing the NASCAR Draft Meter to Win Over Critics

Bing talks about a near failure in NASCAR Racing’s development and how adding a visual “draft meter” salvaged the game’s perception and success.

[00:51:00] What Makes a Great Founder?

Bing shares his top insight into investing: founders who give you an insight you've never heard before are often the most successful.

[00:55:00] The Risk of Being 'Generally Right, Specifically Wrong'

He explains how being close to a great idea, but missing key details, can result in failure—coining the phrase “generally right, specifically wrong.”

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!

Episode Highlights

[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin Story

Kim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her joining Valve right out of college.

[00:04:37] The Birth of Portal: From Student Project to Valve

Kim explains how her DigiPen student project Narbacular Drop caught Valve’s attention and led to the creation of Portal.

[00:10:50] Working With Gabe Newell and Valve’s Culture

Kim describes Valve’s flat hierarchy, creative freedom, and how working with Gabe Newell shaped her career.

[00:14:08] Creative Constraints in Game Design

She shares how limits and constraints actually helped drive innovation in Portal’s level design.

[00:20:22] The Magic of Short Games: Why Portal Was Just Right

Kim reflects on why Portal was intentionally short and how the team prioritized player experience over game length.

[00:25:46] From Valve to Big Tech: Her Leap Into Cloud Gaming

She discusses her transition from traditional studios to roles at Amazon and Xbox, focusing on innovation in cloud gaming.

[00:33:10] Leadership Advice: Trust Your Gut and Advocate for Yourself

Kim offers advice for aspiring leaders in tech: trust your instincts, advocate for your ideas, and know your worth.

[00:42:15] Kim’s Hopes for the Future of Games

She envisions a future where games are more inclusive, emotionally resonant, and push the boundaries of storytelling.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week!

[00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash
Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.

[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Night Studios and Teaching at USC
Christian shares updates on founding Day for Night Studios, collaborating with legendary composer Grant Kirkhope, and teaching screenwriting at USC.

[00:15:00] – How Growing Up in Italy Shaped His Game Development Dreams
Christian discusses his early life in Italy, making camcorder movies, discovering Monkey Island, and finding a love for storytelling through games.

[00:27:00] – Early Struggles: Typing Code from Magazines and Hand-Me-Down Computers
He shares the challenges of learning basic programming on a Commodore 16 and ZX Spectrum without formal training or abundant resources.

[00:46:00] – Breaking Into Rockstar: Cold Email to Working on GTA III
Christian tells the story of how a spontaneous email to DMA Design led to his move to Scotland to help finish GTA III—despite having no prior open-world experience.

[00:53:00] – Designing Emergent Gameplay for GTA III
He explains how Rockstar embraced unintended player behavior, turning it into a core design philosophy that shaped GTA III’s legendary sandbox style.

[00:56:00] – Leading Design on Manhunt and Red Dead Redemption
After GTA III, Christian became the lead designer of Manhunt and helped shape the narrative and world-building of Red Dead Redemption.

[01:00:00] – The Price of Creative Passion: Burnout and Sacrifice
Christian reflects on the emotional and personal cost of spending five intense years building Red Dead Redemption, and whether true greatness requires full commitment.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!

Top 8 Highlights

[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success
Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.

[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre
Louis reflects on co-founding Westwood Studios, the groundbreaking work on Command & Conquer, and helping define the real-time strategy genre.

[00:10:00] – Game Design vs. Casino Game Ethics
He explains how game design in the casino industry is more ethically regulated than video games, raising concerns about manipulation in mainstream game design.

[00:17:00] – A True Multidisciplinary Game Maker
Louis shares how he started as both an artist and programmer, contributing art, code, and design to early Westwood projects.

[00:27:00] – Westwood’s Mission: Make Complex Games Accessible
From Eye of the Beholder to Dune II, Louis discusses how Westwood focused on turning deep mechanics into real-time, accessible gameplay.

[00:41:00] – Technical Wizardry: Building Custom Operating Systems
Louis describes how he built custom OS-level tools and game engines to push hardware limits, including 60 FPS variable frame rate systems in the ‘80s.

[00:44:00] – Childlike Wonder Games: His New Studio & GenAI Vision
He announces his new studio, Childlike Wonder Games, and its mission to create strategy games that let players use generative AI to customize gameplay.

[00:56:00] – The Wild Ride: Selling Westwood 4 Times Before EA
Louis recounts how Westwood was acquired four times—eventually landing at EA—and how he handled all the financial and legal negotiations himself.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Amir Satvat wants to get you a job in games. A business development executive at Tencent, he won the Game Changer award for the incredible community he built which has helped over 3k gamedevs find their next role with mentorship, mock interviews and more. We discuss "the troubles" and hopes for the future - this week!

You can find Amir's website and community here: https://amirsatvat.com/

• [00:00:00] The 17-Year Grind: Amir shares how it took nearly two decades—and hundreds of rejections—before landing his first job in games at age 38.
• [00:14:00] The Job Engine Behind 3,300 Careers: Amir’s community has helped thousands land jobs in games. From mock interviews to portfolio reviews—this is how it all works.
• [00:22:00] 2,300 Games and One Epic Spreadsheet: Amir has played over 2,300 games, tracking his thoughts on each one in a personal mega-spreadsheet since childhood.
• [00:26:00] Inside Four Rooms of Game Collectibles: Amir owns every Amiibo, rare WOW minis, and a glowing Wind Waker statue—all spread across four dedicated rooms.
• [00:27:00] Why the Game Industry is Shrinking (for Now): Layoffs, oversupply, and rising dev costs—Amir breaks down the real reasons behind the industry's contraction.
• [00:34:00] The Great Talent Shift to Asia: Data shows jobs migrating away from California and toward Asia and Europe—Amir explains why it’s happening and what it means.
• [00:42:00] Hope, Help, and Hugging at GDC: Amir reflects on the emotional impact of his work—stories of saved homes, career comebacks, and life-changing support.
• [01:08:00] Has Gaming Growth Peaked? The crew unpacks whether the golden age of game industry expansion is slowing—and what’s next for developers and players alike.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest Alex Beachum turned his thesis project into the mind-bending smash Outer Wilds. Inspired by greats such as Zelda and Antichamber, it blazed new ground by having a nonviolent (though definitely mortal) player. We discuss emotional prototypes, four distinct mysteries and the IGF - this week!

Highlights

[00:00:30] Emotional Prototyping: Designing with Feeling Alex Beachum discusses the idea of building an emotional prototype for a game, capturing the vibe before mechanics—like roasting marshmallows as the sun explodes. This became the emotional core of Outer Wilds.

[00:17:30] The Origin of the Supernova Mechanic: The moment that inspired the iconic supernova loop in Outer Wilds—watching planets explode in slow motion—originated as a student prototype focused on ambiance and inevitability.

[00:09:00] Building a Space Game Without Combat: Alex wanted to make a space exploration game without combat, inspired by Apollo 13 and 2001: A Space Odyssey. The idea was pure exploration—“not to conquer, just to understand.”

[00:10:30] How ‘Outer Wilds’ Was Almost a Roguelike Originally envisioned as a roguelike with randomized elements, Outer Wilds shifted to a fixed solar system with a time loop to better serve its story and design goals.

[00:08:00] Zelda, Myst, and the Indie Inspirations Behind Outer Wilds: Beachum references Zelda, Myst, and Antichamber as key influences. The design philosophy emphasized knowledge as power, like discovering rules you could’ve used all along.

[00:53:00] The Ship Log: Making Mystery Manageable: Alex explains the design of the ship log, which breaks the story into four “curiosity webs” so players can uncover the mystery in any order. A masterclass in open-world narrative structure.

[00:39:00] From Stop Motion to Indie Stardom: Alex recounts how his childhood love of stop-motion and magic tricks evolved into a passion for visual storytelling and game design, eventually leading to Outer Wilds.

[00:42:30] Working with Family: Sibling Storytelling: Alex collaborated with his sister Kelsey Beachum, the writer of Outer Wilds, on the narrative. Their sibling dynamic added cohesion to the game’s emotional and story depth.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

In this inspiring episode of The Fourth Curtain, we sit down with Sandi Montaño, a self-taught modding phenom who went from stay-at-home dad to one of the most downloaded indie creators in the gaming world. With over 31 million downloads of his content for games like ARK: Survival Ascended and Hogwarts Legacy, Sandi proves you don’t need a degree—or even a formal background in game development—to make a major impact.

If you’re a game developer, modder, or creative looking to break into the industry—this is a must-listen.

What started as a project to entertain his daughter has turned into a successful business. We discuss Blender, community needs and geometric growth this week!

[00:00:40] Modding During Nap Time
Sandi shares how he taught himself game modding using textbooks during his daughter’s daily naps—no school, no YouTube, just pure grit.

[00:02:15] 31 Million Downloads & Counting
Alex and Aaron react to the jaw-dropping number of downloads Sandi has achieved—and how it all started as a creative project with his daughter.

[00:10:00] How a Simple Structure Became a Business
Sandi explains how he began creating ARK mods specifically for his daughter, which unexpectedly turned into a full-time business.

[00:17:45] Modding Hogwarts Legacy with SQL
Sandi talks about stepping into Hogwarts Legacy modding and the unexpected challenge of learning SQL to build new features.

[00:24:40] How He Tests New Ideas (The Smart Way)
Sandi walks through his efficient system of prototyping floor and wall structures, using community feedback to determine what becomes a premium mod.

[00:29:10] Modding for Relaxation—and Revenue
Sandi reflects on how modding became both his creative outlet and a surprisingly profitable business, even allowing him to hire help.

[00:35:15] Explaining Your Job as a Modder
He shares how surreal it was when his barber turned out to be a fan using his mods—and the tricky task of explaining his job to others.

[00:46:00] Advice for Aspiring Modders
Sandi encourages anyone curious about modding to just get started—highlighting persistence, experimentation, and community feedback as key ingredients to success.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505

Our guest is Exploding Kitten's Elan Lee. Starting with animating breath for the film Titanic, he went on to create the world's first alternate reality game, The Beast, at Microsoft. Later he gamified Nine Inch Nails and voter registration and went on to launch the most successful Kickstarter ever for Exploding Kittens, redefining family game night. This episode features great stories and a world exclusive product announcement - this week!

[00:06:30] From ILM to Xbox
Elan shares his early work on Titanic and Star Wars, including hand-animating breath and neck seams for Jar Jar Binks—yes, really.

[00:18:30] The Xbox Origin Story
Elan recounts joining Microsoft during the secretive beginnings of Xbox and working with gaming legend Jordan Weisman on the launch lineup.

[00:30:45] Creating the First ARG with Spielberg
How AI: Artificial Intelligence inspired Elan to pioneer alternate reality games, turning storytelling into an interactive experience.

[00:35:00] Nine Inch Nails and “The Game That Calls You”
Partnering with Trent Reznor, Elan built an ARG that included thermochromic CD ink, cryptic websites, and secret concerts.

[00:41:30] The Clothing Line That Taught U.S. History
A secret-encoded T-shirt line that secretly retold the story of the American Revolution—gamified fashion meets education.

[00:49:00] Why Exploding Kittens Happened
After stepping away from screens, Elan turned to physical games and launched Exploding Kittens, which raised $9 million on Kickstarter.

[00:54:45] Inside the Chaos of Fulfilling 700,000 Orders
How Elan went from a 200-copy side project to full-scale game production, leaning on friends (and Cards Against Humanity) to survive.

[01:01:30] Teasing the New Exploding Kittens Board Game
Elan reveals an exclusive about a brand-new 3D board game version of Exploding Kittens coming soon—with a mechanic that took two years to perfect.

Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!
Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin
Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com

Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain

Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe
Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain
Follow us on twitter: @fourthcurtain
Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com

Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley
Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian
Producer: Shanglan (May) Li
Art: Paul Russel
Community Manager: Doug Zartman
Featuring Liberation by 505