What happens when achieving the success you thought you wanted leaves you asking, “Now what?”

For Kris Land, that question became the beginning of a much deeper exploration.

After selling a company and making significant money, Kris found himself unexpectedly depressed. He had accomplished the goals he thought he was supposed to accomplish, but instead of feeling fulfilled, he was left with a sense of emptiness and uncertainty about what came next.

That experience pushed him to start asking questions about consciousness, spirituality, the soul, and what it means to actually be alive.

In this episode of Second Life Leader, Kris joins Doug Utberg for a wide-ranging conversation that moves between technology, science, theology, reincarnation, consciousness, and the possibility that we may be far more connected to reality than we realize.

At the center of the conversation is a simple question:

What if we’ve forgotten who we really are?

TL;DR

Fear and doubt may not be signals to stop. They may be invitations to become curious.

Chris’s perspective includes:

* Question the assumptions you’ve accepted about reality.

* Don’t confuse something being unprovable with it being untrue.

* Think of life as an experience rather than simply a pursuit of achievement.

* Consider what fear is trying to tell you instead of immediately running from it.

* Use curiosity to understand where fear and doubt come from.

* Recognize that you may have more agency than you think.

* Pay attention to coincidences and unexpected moments of connection.

* Leave room for possibilities you cannot yet explain.

* Focus less on eliminating uncertainty and more on learning how to navigate it.

The goal isn’t necessarily to find definitive answers.

It’s to become willing to ask better questions.

Memorable Lines

“Use fear as a signpost. Don’t use it to trap you.”

“Fear is the concrete that keeps doubt in place.”

“Instead of fear now choosing for me, I’m now giving choice back to myself.”

“The more connected we become, the closer you get to bending that spoon.”

“What if fear is a signpost?”

“Just because you can’t prove something doesn’t mean it’s untrue.”

“Maybe you are being much more co-creative in this than you thought.”

Guest: Kris Land

Chris Land is a technology entrepreneur, inventor, and author whose career has included building companies and creating technology that previously didn’t exist.

His own experience with success, depression, and the question of “what comes next?” led him into a deeper exploration of spirituality, consciousness, theology, and the nature of reality.

His book, The Infinity Within, explores many of these ideas and approaches them as questions rather than instructions about what people should believe.

Why This Matters

For founders, executives, and high performers, the pursuit of success can become its own kind of trap.

More money.

More growth.

More achievements.

More certainty.

But what happens when you finally get what you were chasing—and discover that it doesn’t answer the question of what comes next?

Kris’s story suggests that rebuilding isn’t always about fixing something that’s broken.

Sometimes it’s about questioning the assumptions that shaped the life you built in the first place.

One of the most practical ideas from the conversation is to treat fear differently.

Instead of allowing fear to make the decision for you, pause and ask:

Why am I feeling this?How is it serving me?What choice do I have now?

That shift turns fear from a block into information—and gives the decision back to you.

You don’t have to believe every theory discussed in this episode.

You don’t even have to agree with Chris.

But you might walk away with something more useful:

the willingness to stay curious about the things you don’t yet understand.

Listen to the full conversation with Chris Land on Second Life Leader.

What happens when rapid success becomes unsustainable?

For Colin Hodge, the answer came through a painful lesson.

After building a startup that reached 1 million users in roughly three months, Colin found himself under enormous pressure—scaling infrastructure, recruiting a team, experimenting with growth tactics, and dealing with a major trademark lawsuit. Then Apple told him his app would be removed from the App Store within 24 hours.

He eventually found himself sitting on the floor of his San Francisco apartment, overwhelmed and crying in the shower.

That moment became a turning point.

In this episode of Second Life Leader, Colin joins Doug Bird to talk about the psychology that helped him rebuild—not just his company, but his approach to entrepreneurship itself.

They explore what it means to get comfortable with discomfort, stop living for other people’s approval, understand customer psychology, and build systems that allow sustainable growth instead of frantic growth.

TL;DR

The psychology behind how you work may matter just as much as the strategy you’re using.

Colin’s biggest lessons include:

* Get comfortable being uncomfortable.

* Stop building your life around other people’s approval.

* Be authentic without confusing authenticity with performance.

* Understand your users’ psychology and meet them where they are.

* Focus on the variables you can actually control.

* Treat business decisions as hypotheses that need to be tested.

* Don’t wait for perfection before putting ideas into the world.

* Let data drive your decisions.

* Build systems that allow small wins to compound over time.

The goal isn’t to swing for the fences every time.

It’s to develop the discipline to keep getting on base.

Memorable Lines

“I need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.”

“The worst that happens is people see you’re trying.”

“I don’t have to perform for this.”

“It’s not lack of planning, it’s just lack of fakeness.”

“You can’t control the outcome. You can control the process.”

“What’s the hypothesis?”

“If you’re swinging always for the fences, then you need to take a hard look and be like, are you okay with the one out of a thousand going there?”

Guest: Colin Hodge

Colin Hodge is a repeat founder who has grown startups to millions of users and has experienced both rapid growth and painful setbacks.

His experience ultimately led him toward a more sustainable approach to entrepreneurship—one grounded in psychology, behavioral science, experimentation, and understanding the people using his products.

A major part of that approach is what Colin calls “decision engineering”: understanding the cognitive biases and psychological factors that influence the small decisions users make throughout their journey.

Why This Matters

Entrepreneurship often rewards the appearance of certainty.

Social media shows the successful launch. The funding announcement. The growth chart. The bestseller.

It rarely shows the breakdown in the shower.

But failure, uncertainty, and messy rebuilding are often part of the actual process.

Colin’s story is a reminder that sustainable growth isn’t necessarily about finding the biggest possible opportunity or constantly chasing the next growth tactic.

Sometimes it’s about understanding the game, identifying what you can control, testing your assumptions, and doing enough repetitions to learn what actually works.

As Doug puts it through the baseball analogy: focus on the strike zone, not the result of every swing.

Because in an uncertain world, you can’t guarantee every outcome.

But you can build a process that gives you a much better chance of creating the outcome you want.

Listen to the full conversation with Colin Hodge on Second Life Leader.