Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University discuss cantos 13-17 of Dante's Purgatorio--the purging of envy and wrath.

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Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to discuss Cantos 13–17, covering the terraces of envy (Canto 13) and wrath (Cantos 14–17), with a strong focus on the central discourses in the middle of the Comedy.

In Canto 13, the envious have their eyelids sewn shut with iron wire, a contrapasso that forces them to rely on others and recognize interdependence. Wilson explains: “envy is to look cross-eyed on another's blessings... to look askance,” and the disembodied voices proclaim examples of generosity (Cana, “I am Orestes,” “Love them from whom you’ve suffered evil”), teaching a mindset of abundance over scarcity (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). Sapia humbly confesses her envy and malice, contrasting with the divisive souls in Inferno.

Cantos 14–15 transition to wrath, with visions of meekness (Mary and Joseph seeking Jesus, a tyrant sparing a youth, Stephen forgiving his stoners) and Virgil’s discourse on goods: exhaustible earthly goods versus inexhaustible spiritual ones. Wilson notes: “envy stems from a mindset of scarcity versus Mary’s mindset of abundance... able to supply where it looks like there’s not enough in the world” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).

The pivotal Canto 16 (the exact midpoint of the Comedy) features Marco Lombardo’s sermon on free will: “If the present world has gone astray, the cause is in you, look at yourselves” (Marco via transcript). Wilson calls it “the clearest sermon that Dante has about what’s wrong with the world,” emphasizing that sin arises from misused free will, not fate or stars, and critiques the separation of temporal and spiritual powers.

Canto 17 concludes the wrath terrace with Virgil’s discourse on love as the root of all action (“Neither Creator nor creature was ever without love... natural or of the mind” – Virgil via transcript), which can be misdirected, deficient, or excessive. Wilson highlights the shift from reason to grace: “reason can’t do it alone... you need this other kind of intervention” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The cantos underscore Purgatorio’s hopeful pedagogy: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from misdirected to deficient love in preparation for the excessive attachments above. Wilson stresses the urgency: “the Purgatorio shows humanity in motion, dynamic humanity... it has the immediacy... that is an urgency to it” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

04:06 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio

07:20 The Great Books Program at Pepperdine University

10:18 The Significance of Purgatorio

13:27 Understanding Envy in Purgatorio

16:17 Contrary Virtues: Generosity and Kindness

19:22 The Role of Sight and Blindness in Envy

22:15 Dante's Moral Lessons on Envy

25:14 Comparative Analysis with Inferno

30:33 Dante's Poetic Structure and Contrapasso

32:15 Comparative Analysis of Characters in Inferno and Purgatorio

33:54 The Role of Good and Bad Examples in Moral Education

34:14 The Shift from Temporal to Eternal Mindsets

34:20 Understanding Canto 14: The Importance of Examples

39:35 Canto 15: The Inquiry into Goods and Wrath

49:58 Canto 16: The Purging of Wrath and Examples of Virtue

51:35 Ecstatic Visions and Penitent Souls

52:19 The Tyrant's Moment of Virtue

53:28 Humanity in Purgatorio

54:38 The Role of Mary in Purgatory

56:02 Saint Stephen's Example of Forgiveness

57:12 Virgil's Limitations as a Guide

59:12 The Nature of Freedom in Purgatory

01:03:07 The Importance of Canto 16

01:04:37 Understanding Freedom in Dante's Context

01:07:32 The Role of Law and Governance

01:14:39 Self-Reflection and the State of the World

01:23:48 Exploring Wrath in Purgatory

01:30:57 Understanding the Structure of Purgatory

Keywords: Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17, spiritual growth, virtues and vices, education, great books, Dante analysis Dante's Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Virtues and Vices, Free Will, Theology, Morality, Literature, Catholic Teaching, Spiritual Journey

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick and Mr. Luke Heintschel, headmaster of Coeur du Christ Academy, discuss the rest of ante-purgatory and then the first terrace--the purging of pride.

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The conversation explores the transition from Ante-Purgatory into the proper mountain of Purgatory and the first terrace dedicated to purging the sin of pride. Garlick describes this section as one of his favorites in the entire Purgatorio, praising Dante’s ability to provide a rich “liturgy” and spiritual library of resources for reshaping the soul into the beautiful image of Christ. The episode emphasizes Purgatorio as a positive map for sanctification and theosis, contrasting sharply with the Inferno’s exposure of sin’s ugliness.Guest Introduction and Classical Education Insights

Luke Heintschel shares his personal journey from evangelization and biblical theology into classical education, explaining how he came to see the liberal arts tradition—long cultivated by the Church—as the most effective means of making Catholicism relevant to contemporary young people. He describes his school’s mission of forming saints, scholars, and servants through the historic Catholic educational model. Deacon and Heintschel discuss the harmony of faith and reason, noting how reading great books alongside Scripture and theology reveals that the God who grants intellect is the same God who died on the cross. They highlight the value of using Dante’s Purgatorio in moral theology classes, where it serves not as a list of rules but as a vivid portrayal of transforming the heart’s disordered loves toward their divine end.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio

09:02 Understanding Purgatorio: A Map for Spiritual Growth

15:17 Dante's Intercessory Prayer and Its Significance

24:13 The Role of Beatrice and the Nature of Beauty

34:53 Dante's Political Critique and the State of Italy

43:05 The Call to Higher Patriotism

53:44 Understanding Virtue: Natural vs. Theological

59:35 The Valley of the Kings: Political Failures and Redemption

01:15:02 Dante's Heroism and Divine Grace

01:19:41 The Three Steps to Purification

01:28:10 The Role of Humility in Purgatory

01:51:27 The Purpose of Purification

01:59:24 Contrappasso: The Nature of Punishment in Purgatory

02:04:44 Examples of Pride: Lessons from the Past

02:16:26 The Beatitudes and the Path to Humility

02:23:47 Eagerness to Ascend: The Transformation of the Soul

Moral Theology and the Purpose of Purgatorio

The hosts stress that moral theology is not merely about avoiding sin but about becoming beautiful like Christ through active configuration to His image. Purgatorio offers a lifelong guide for this ascent, presenting prayers, hymns, scriptural examples, and artistic visions tailored to remedy each vice. They critique modern reductions of ethics to a “negative list” of prohibitions, arguing that Dante invites readers to pursue positive virtue and interior change.

In Canto 6, the souls in Ante-Purgatory eagerly seek Dante’s prayers, illustrating the Catholic doctrine of intercession for the dead as a participation in Christ’s merits. Virgil explains that purgation is possible through the resurrection, and the episode includes a brief catechesis on the communion of saints across the Church Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant. Beatrice is presented as an icon of divine beauty and grace, with the...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo, the Warren Chair of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, discuss the Ante-Purgatory, the foot of Mount Purgatory (Cantos 1-5).

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Visit Dr. Jason Baxter's website and use "Ascend" in the promo code for 20% off his Purgatorio audiobook.

Thanks for the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for their support!

The conversation with Dr. Prudlo and Deacon Garlick on Cantos 1–5 of Purgatorio opens with the dramatic shift from the despair of Inferno to the hope and refreshment of Purgatory.

In Canto 1, Dante and Virgil emerge from Hell onto the shores of Mount Purgatory at Easter dawn, where Dante humbly invokes Calliope, the Muse of epic poetry, signaling his project as “the Christian epic” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). They meet Cato the Younger, a pagan suicide saved by special grace, who embodies the four cardinal virtues and serves as Purgatory’s guardian. Prudlo emphasizes the shock: “Cato the pagan, the suicide is going to heaven. And we have got to confront that or we're going to miss so much of what Dante has to tell us here” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The ritual of washing with dew and girding with the humble reed contrasts the broken plants of the suicides in Hell and symbolizes the beginning of true humility and ascent.

Cantos 2–5 introduce the late-repentant souls and the mountain’s structure. In Canto 2, an angelic boat ferries souls singing “In exitu Israel de Aegypto,” a psalm of liberation that Prudlo calls “a multifaceted song” evoking Exodus, baptism, and community (Dr. Donald Prudlo). Casella’s song of Dante’s own poetry enchants the group until Cato rebukes their idleness.

Cantos 3–5 explore excommunicated sinners like Manfred (“even under a curse like mine, no one's ever so lost that eternal love cannot come back, as long as hope has any sprouts of green” – Manfred via transcript) and the slothful Belacqua, who banters with Dante like old friends. Prudlo highlights the power of last-minute mercy and intercession: “Mary is the last refuge of sinners” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The cantos teach that Purgatory is a place of communal hope, where grace reaches even the unlikely, and purification begins with humility, prayer, and rightly ordered love—setting the stage for the active ascent through the terraces.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dante's Purgatorio

04:42 The Importance of Reading Purgatorio

08:02 Themes of Emancipation and Freedom

10:57 The Role of Cato in Purgatorio

13:49 Cato's Significance and Political Implications

17:00 Cato as a Precursor to Christ

19:51 Dante's Literary Techniques and Inspirations

22:56 Contrasting Ulysses and Dante

25:36 Cato's Death and Its Symbolism

28:52 The Nature of Purgatory and Salvation

31:51 Cato's Virtues and Their Relevance

34:49 The Relationship Between Cato and Christ

37:48 Conclusion and Reflections on Purgatorio

50:03 Understanding Cato's Role in Purgatorio

52:43 The Heartbreaking Choice of Cato

54:39 Rituals and Purification in Purgatory

01:00:18 The Arrival at Purgatory

01:06:34 The Significance of Water in Salvation

01:12:09 Virgil's Role and the Nature of Guidance

01:24:57 Manfred: A Case of Late Repentance

01:29:38 The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Purgatory

01:34:00 Understanding Mount Purgatory and Its Significance

01:40:15 The Character of Belacqua and Themes...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dr. Jason Baxter and Dcn. Harrison Garlick come together to introduce Dante's Purgatorio and Dr. Baxter's new translation!

We are reading Dante's Purgatorio for Lent. Join us!

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DISCOUNT: Check out Dr. Jason Baxter's website and enter "Ascend" to receive **20%** off the Purgatorio audiobook read by Dr. Baxter!

Check out Dr. Baxter's Substack article on his new translation.

And thank you to the Center of Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for promoting this reading of the Purgatorio!

Dr. Baxter first describes the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College as a fellowship program (Angelico Fellows) that immerses students in beauty across the arts, music, literature, and theology—through concerts, museums, and pilgrimages—to foster interiority and the conviction that “beauty can save the world.”

The conversation then contrasts Purgatorio with the Inferno: while the latter is dark, lurid, and focused on judgment, Purgatorio is a place of hope, mercy, transformation, and “eternal New Year’s resolutions,” where repentant souls engage in spiritual exercises to purify their tarnished mirrors, learn authentic love and prayer, and prepare for Paradise. Baxter likens the shift to moving from heavy metal to Schubert, emphasizing greenness, brightness, and unexpected mercy.

Baxter explains that his translation began as a personal quest for mastery—going word-by-word to internalize Dante like memorizing a piano piece—but evolved into a philosophy capturing Dante’s “fugue” of style: ascending, prolix syntax with lofty classical allusions layered over humble, earthy words that reflect Franciscan humility and incarnational Christian poetics. Examples include goats ruminating on the “foco d’amore” (fire of love) amid elevated star imagery, or Statius calling Virgil’s Aeneid “una mamma” (translated “mommy”).

He describes Purgatorio as spiritual surgery—painfully removing the soul’s “carcinogenic” elements through grace-filled cooperation—and a map for configuring to Christ beyond mere sin avoidance. Baxter advises first-time readers to pause at puzzling images or word choices, ask “why would Dante do that here?,” trust their instincts, and consider his audiobook for the text’s soundscape, while Deacon Garlick stresses the canticle’s role as a spiritual guide that mirrors one’s own maturation toward God.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio

03:43 The Center for Beauty and Culture

05:40 Understanding Dante's Purgatorio

07:54 The Nature of Purgatorio

14:54 Dante the Pilgrim vs. Dante the Poet

19:32 The Spirituality of Translation

20:14 The Philosophy of Translation

30:02 Dante's Christian Poetics

34:22 Exploring Dante's Poetic Style

36:51 Juxtaposition in Dante's Imagery

41:42 The Concept of Spiritual Surgery

44:49 The Journey of Holiness

48:13 The Role of...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Justin Jackson host a Q&A on Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. They explore major themes such as the role of femininity, the moral dilemmas faced by Gawain, and the significance of the girdle.

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The conversation highlights Gawain's character development, the tension between chivalric ideals and Christian morality, and the Green Knight's role as a tempter. Through a detailed analysis, they uncover the layers of meaning within the poem, emphasizing the intentional tension crafted by the poet.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Podcast and Guests

03:13 Teaching 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight'

06:34 The Role of Women in the Poem

12:27 The Tension Between Pagan and Christian Elements

21:57 Gawain's Moral Dilemmas and Compartmentalization

28:05 The Confession Scene and Its Implications

37:02 Confession and Contrition

40:56 The Green Knight's Dual Role

51:58 Chivalry, Cowardice, and the Girdle

01:02:50 Symbolism of Colors in Gawain

01:07:31 The Intensity of the Green Knight

01:08:36 Gawain's Confrontation and Internal Conflict

01:11:29 The Symbolism of the Green Girdle

01:17:24 The Ending: Bliss and Blunder

01:26:19 Final Thoughts on Gawain's Journey

Keywords

Sir Gawain, Green Knight, themes, femininity, chivalry, morality, confession, literature, medieval, analysis, Sir Gawain, Green Knight, chivalry, medieval literature, symbolism, courtly love, Morgan Le Fay, color symbolism, moral lessons, literary analysis, great books, philosophy, Catholic, Catholicism

Takeaways

1. The tension in the poem is intentional and significant.
2. Gawain's character is complex, showcasing both strengths and weaknesses.
3. The role of femininity is prominent and influential in the narrative.
4. The girdle symbolizes Gawain's internal conflict and moral struggles.
5. Gawain's confession scene raises important questions about sincerity and contrition.
6. The Green Knight serves as a tempter, challenging Gawain's virtues.
7. The poem explores the interplay between pagan and Christian ideals.
8. Gawain's journey reflects a maturation of character and understanding.
9. The hunting scenes parallel Gawain's temptations and moral choices.
10. The...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo explore the intricate relationship between Plato and St. Thomas Aquinas, examining how Aquinas's thought is influenced by Platonic philosophy while also being rooted in Aristotle.

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They discuss the nuances of Aquinas' understanding of universals, the nature of evil, and the significance of the body in Christian anthropology, highlighting the complexities of Aquinas's intellectual context and the historical development of these philosophical ideas.

They discuss how Aquinas synthesized various philosophical traditions, particularly in his understanding of existence and essence, the role of beauty, and the moral implications of his metaphysics. The dialogue also touches on the early church's reception (or rejection) of Aristotle, the influence of Islamic philosophy, and the evolution of Aquinas' thought throughout his life.

Ultimately, the conversation highlights the richness of Aquinas' philosophy and its relevance to contemporary discussions on faith and reason.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

03:11 Experiencing the Papal Conclave

06:34 Plato and Aquinas: A Complex Relationship

12:43 Aquinas' Intellectual Evolution

17:02 The Importance of Reading the Great Books

24:25 Platonic Thought in Aquinas' Philosophy

34:48 The Quest for Certitude in Philosophy

37:20 Realism and the Nature of Universals

40:56 Mind-Body Dualism and the Significance of the Body

47:36 The Reception of Aristotle in Early Christianity

54:09 The Distinction Between Essence and Existence

01:04:53 The Role of Beauty in Aquinas' Philosophy

01:06:38 Exploring Beauty in Philosophy

01:11:23 The Role of Beauty in St. Thomas Aquinas

01:13:44 The Ladder of Love and Its Implications

01:19:18 Essence and Existence in Thomistic Thought

01:21:41 The Hierarchy of Being and Divine Wisdom

01:25:22 The Evolution of Aquinas' Thought

01:27:35 Understanding Aquinas Through His Influences

01:30:17 Final Thoughts on Faith and Reason

Takeaways

1. Aquinas is often mischaracterized as purely Aristotelian.
2. The relationship between Plato and Aristotle is more complex (and harmonious) than often portrayed.
3. Aquinas' thought is enriched by both Platonic and Aristotelian influences.
4. Evil is understood as a privation of the good in Aquinas's philosophy.
5. Aquinas' understanding of universals differs from both Plato and Aristotle.
6. The concept of exitus and reditus is a key Neoplatonic idea in Aquinas.
7. The mind-body dualism presents challenges for Christian thought.
8. Aquinas retained Platonic emphasis on the...

In this episode of the Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Thomas Ward from Baylor University about Plato's influence on St. Boethius.

The conversation begins with an exploration of Boethius's life, particularly his role as a Roman statesman and philosopher during a tumultuous time in history. Dr. Ward highlights St. Boethius's seminal work, "The Consolation of Philosophy," written while he awaited execution, and discusses its impact on medieval thought and the liberal arts tradition. The dialogue emphasizes St. Boethius's unique position as a bridge between Roman and medieval philosophy, often referred to as the last of the Romans and the first of the medievals.

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And check out Dr. Thomas Ward's website!

As the conversation unfolds, the discussion shifts to the Platonic influences on St. Boethius's writings. Dr. Ward explains how Boethius synthesized Platonic and Aristotelian thought, particularly in his understanding of the good and the nature of happiness. The episode delves into the themes of evil as privation, the nature of true happiness, and the philosophical journey from despair to enlightenment that St. Boethius undergoes in his work.

The dialogue is rich with references to other philosophical texts, including the works of Plato, and draws parallels between Boethius's ideas and those found in the writings of later thinkers like Dante and Aquinas. Overall, the episode serves as a compelling introduction to Boethius's thought and its enduring relevance in the study of philosophy.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

02:24 Exploring Boethius and His Influence

04:16 Who Was Boethius?

07:49 Boethius: The Last Roman and First Scholastic

10:18 The Liberal Arts and Boethius' Legacy

11:36 Teaching Boethius: A Personal Journey

14:07 Plato's Influence on Boethius

18:50 The Consolation of Philosophy: Setting the Stage

24:31 Lady Philosophy: Deconstruction and Reconstruction

29:58 The Quest for Self-Knowledge

30:51 Fortune and Its Dual Nature

31:53 The Good: Bridging Plato and Christianity

36:19 Happiness and the Divine Connection

40:00 The Paradox of Good and Evil

45:11 The Poetic and Philosophical Fusion

48:44 Evil as Privation: A Platonic Insight

52:08 Boethius: A Synthesis of Philosophical Traditions

Takeaways

1. Boethius is often called the last of the Romans and the first of the Medievals.
2. His work, "The Consolation of Philosophy," was written while he awaited execution.
3. Boethius synthesized Platonic and Aristotelian thought in his writings.
4. Evil is understood as a privation of good, not a substance in itself.
5. The journey from despair to enlightenment is central to Boethius's philosophy.

Keywords

Boethius, Plato, Consolation of Philosophy, medieval philosophy, Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Thomas Ward, liberal arts, happiness, evil as privation, philosophy, Deacon Harrison Garlick, great...

How did Plato influence St. Augustine? Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Chad Pecknold of the Catholic University of America discuss Plato's influence on St. Augustine.

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Check out FIRE ON THE ALTAR by Dr. Chad Pecknold.

The discussion begins with the historical evolution of Platonism—from the original Academy of Socrates and Plato, through Middle Platonism (with figures like Plutarch and Apuleius), to the late or Neoplatonism of Plotinus and others—showing how it became increasingly religious, mystical, and hierarchical in the Roman Empire, complete with daemons (intermediary spiritual beings) and a strong emphasis on the soul's ascent to the divine.

St. Augustine, after years as a Manichaean and skeptic, encountered Platonic texts (likely including Plotinus) in Milan around 385–386 AD through Christian Platonists like Bishop Ambrose and Simplicianus. These writings played a crucial role in his intellectual conversion: they revealed a transcendent, immaterial God as Being itself, the eternal Word/Logos, and the soul's capacity for contemplative ascent beyond the material world—ideas strikingly parallel to the prologue of John's Gospel.

Yet St. Augustine recognized Platonism's crucial limitation: it allowed him to "catch the fragrance" of God but not to "feast" through union, because it lacked the Word made flesh—the incarnate Christ as the true mediator who bridges the gap between the divine and humanity, solving the problem of mediation and purification that Platonism itself raised but could not resolve.

Ultimately, Pecknold presents Platonism as a providential praeparatio evangelica—a promise that raises the restless heart's longing for God, truth, beauty, and eternal happiness—but one fulfilled only in Christianity. St. Augustine adopts and transforms Platonic elements (such as the ideas/forms residing in the divine mind, now identified with the Logos/Christ, and the soul's ascent through purification) while critiquing its errors, especially its inadequate mediators and inability to address incarnation, bodily resurrection, and grace. In this way, St. Augustine shows that Plato comes closest among philosophers to Christianity, yet only the Word made flesh satisfies the hunger Plato so powerfully articulated.

Plato on St. Boethius is up next week!