Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Daniel Wagner dive into Plato’s Meno as a masterclass in education, contrasting Meno’s stagnant, power-seeking sophistry with his slave boy’s humble, rapid learning during the famous geometry demonstration.

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See our COLLECTION OF GUIDES on the great books.

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They explore aporia (perplexity) as a vital pedagogical tool requiring courage and humility, the theory of recollection as a rhetorical device rather than doctrine, and the distinction between stable knowledge (phronesis) and fleeting right opinion (doxa).

Ultimately, virtue is teachable as knowledge, but demands active practice from the student—explaining why even great statesmen like Pericles failed to pass it to their sons. The dialogue emerges as a warning: don’t be a Meno; embrace the discomfort of not-knowing to pursue truth.

“Don’t be a Meno.” - Dr. Wagner

“Learning isn’t just rote memorization… it’s ordered toward nous – intellectual insight into reality.” - Dr. Wagner

“Classical education is the best model of actually conforming the mind to reality." - Dcn. Harrison Garlick

Read Plato’s Meno to see education in action: a proud sophist stays stuck while a humble slave boy learns geometry in minutes, proving that real learning demands courage, humility, and active pursuit of truth. It’s the perfect wake-up call—don’t be a Meno.

HALLOWEEN SPECIAL! In this episode, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Joseph Boyne explore G.K. Chesterton's short story 'The Chief Mourner of Marne,' discussing its themes, characters, and moral implications.

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Check out our COLLECTION OF GUIDES TO THE GREAT BOOKS.

They delve into the significance of transformative texts in education, the role of Father Brown as a detective, and the interplay between Gothic literature and Halloween motifs. The conversation highlights the importance of Christian charity and the complexities of forgiveness, ultimately reflecting on the deeper meanings within Chesterton's work and the nature of storytelling.

Keywords: G.K. Chesterton, Father Brown, The Chief Mourner of Marne, Halloween, Gothic literature, Christian charity, transformative texts, literature analysis, podcast, education

The Phaedo is a beautiful dialogue! Join Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Christopher Frey, McFarland Professor of Philosophy at the University of Tulsa, as they conclude their exploration of Plato’s Phaedo, a profound dialogue capturing Socrates’ final hours and his arguments for the soul’s immortality.

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In this episode, Dcn. Garlick and Dr. Frey dive into the second half of the text (72e–118a), unpacking the recollection and affinity arguments, objections from Simmias and Cebes, the concept of misology, the final cause argument, the myth of the afterlife, and Socrates’ enigmatic final words.

Episode Segments

Recollection Argument (72e–77a)

• Socrates argues that learning is recalling preexistent knowledge of forms: “Coming to know something… is actually recollecting.”
• Sense experience, like seeing equal sticks, triggers recollection of perfect forms.
• This suggests the soul exists before birth.
• The argument for forms is distinct from recollection.

Affinity Argument (78b–80b)

• The soul resembles forms, being “divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform,” unlike the mutable body: “The body is… mortal, multiform, dissolvable.”
• Forms are simple and unchanging: “Beauty itself doesn’t change… It would have to be something that isn’t visible.”

Riveting Image and the Philosophical Life (83d)

• Pleasures and pains “rivet the soul to the body and to weld them together."
• Socrates remains calm while others weep, embodying philosophical discipline: “He’s the philosopher… They’re too sunk, they’re too mired in that bodily.”

Objections by Simmias and Cebes (84c–88b)

• Simmias’ harmony view posits the soul as an effect of bodily organization.
• Cebes’ cloak objection suggests the soul may wear out: “Why couldn’t there be a last time which… the soul does eventually wear out?”
• Socrates counters that the soul causes life, not the body.

Misology and the Value of Argument (88c–89e)

• Socrates warns against misology, hating reasoned argument: “There’s no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse.”

Final Cause Argument (95b–107a)

• Socrates’ autobiography reveals dissatisfaction with materialist explanations, seeking purpose.
• The soul’s essential life ensures immortality: “The soul is alive itself in a way that it can’t be taken away… As the fire cannot actually receive coldness, neither can the soul actually receive death.”

Myth of the Afterlife (107d–114c)

• Describes a stratified earth with hollows and Tartarus.
• Souls face judgment or purgation.
• Details may not be literal but encourage virtue.

Socrates’ Death and Final Words (114d–118a)

• Socrates drinks hemlock, called a “pharmacon."
• Final words suggest death as healing: “Crito, we ought to offer a cock to Asclepius… The malady for which he wants to be cured is embodied life itself.”
• Inspires hope, especially for Christians: “If someone like Socrates… can enter it with this much fortitude… how much greater should our hope be?”

Key Takeaways

• The Phaedo’s arguments—recollection, affinity, and final cause—build a case for the soul’s immortality, though not airtight, urging a philosophical life: “The philosophical life is one in which you have to be comfortable with...