-
Destin's Hold
- The Alliance
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 8 hrs and 3 mins
Add to Cart failed.
Add to Wish List failed.
Remove from wishlist failed.
Adding to library failed
Follow podcast failed
Unfollow podcast failed
Buy for $19.95
No default payment method selected.
We are sorry. We are not allowed to sell this product with the selected payment method
Listeners also enjoyed...
-
Edge of Insanity
- The Alliance, Book 6
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 7 hrs and 6 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Edge remembers little of his capture, but what has happened since is vivid in his memory. The Waxians want information about Trivator military and weapons systems. Edge can feel his mind splintering from the prolonged torture, but a soft voice in the darkness urges him to resist and fight back.
-
-
A Strong but Vulnerable Main Character.
- By Clara on 06-26-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
Ella and the Beast
- More Than Human, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 8 hrs and 58 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Ella is the last of a dying breed of humans who live hidden deep in the forests of Washington State. All of her life, she has heard horror stories about the Others, the beasts that live beyond the safety of the mountains. In ancient times, humans and the Others lived together in peace, but a great battle divided them, and the shape-shifting species won the war.
-
-
Pure Genius
- By Christina on 02-22-17
By: S. E. Smith
-
The Dark Prince’s Prize
- By: S.E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 10 hrs and 10 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Prince Adalard Ha’darra’s mission is simple - stay out of trouble while on Earth. His plans to enjoy his time with a few pleasurable distractions change when his transport is sabotaged, forcing him to land miles from Paul Grove’s remote ranch. Samara Lee-Stephens has lived with the Lee-Stephens curse her entire life. Determined to break it, she focuses on earning enough money to one day leave her family’s reputation behind. As if her life wasn’t complicated enough, she soon finds herself fascinated by the Grove ranch’s newest client, who claims to be an alien prince!
-
-
Great story!
- By Tammy on 04-29-22
By: S.E. Smith
-
Abducting Abby
- The Dragon Lords of Valdier, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 6 hrs and 30 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Abby Tanner is content to live on her mountain while she creates beautiful works of art and enjoys the peace and quiet. All that changes when a strange golden spaceship crash lands on it. Now Abby has to deal with a golden ship, a tortured alien, and an insane local sheriff.
-
-
I didn't like it as much as I thought I would
- By TheGirlFromBama on 07-08-15
By: S. E. Smith
-
Choosing Riley
- Sarafin Warriors, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 9 hrs and 9 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Riley St. Claire has always followed her own rules. When she discovers her current employer is not as law-abiding as she thought, she has to leave town in a hurry...or end up buried with the dead guy she discovered. She doesn't expect to be picked up by a passing trader from another world. As the ruling king of Sarafin, Vox d'Rojah is expected to produce a son who will be joined in marriage with the first-born daughter of the king of Valdier.
-
-
Oh my god I hate Riley
- By k james on 03-19-17
By: S. E. Smith
-
Gracie’s Touch
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 7 hrs and 59 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Gracie Jones was little more than a child when Earth was invaded by an alien species. Escaping into the subway tunnels of New York City, she hid in fear of being captured. Discovered by four men who became her protectors, she fought alongside them, and they became known as the Freedom Five. At 17, she made a decision that turned the tide in the war between Earth and the Alluthans, but in exchange, she gave up all that she knew.
-
-
David Brenin does an excellent job
- By JodyL on 09-11-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
Edge of Insanity
- The Alliance, Book 6
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 7 hrs and 6 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Edge remembers little of his capture, but what has happened since is vivid in his memory. The Waxians want information about Trivator military and weapons systems. Edge can feel his mind splintering from the prolonged torture, but a soft voice in the darkness urges him to resist and fight back.
-
-
A Strong but Vulnerable Main Character.
- By Clara on 06-26-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
Ella and the Beast
- More Than Human, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 8 hrs and 58 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Ella is the last of a dying breed of humans who live hidden deep in the forests of Washington State. All of her life, she has heard horror stories about the Others, the beasts that live beyond the safety of the mountains. In ancient times, humans and the Others lived together in peace, but a great battle divided them, and the shape-shifting species won the war.
-
-
Pure Genius
- By Christina on 02-22-17
By: S. E. Smith
-
The Dark Prince’s Prize
- By: S.E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 10 hrs and 10 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Prince Adalard Ha’darra’s mission is simple - stay out of trouble while on Earth. His plans to enjoy his time with a few pleasurable distractions change when his transport is sabotaged, forcing him to land miles from Paul Grove’s remote ranch. Samara Lee-Stephens has lived with the Lee-Stephens curse her entire life. Determined to break it, she focuses on earning enough money to one day leave her family’s reputation behind. As if her life wasn’t complicated enough, she soon finds herself fascinated by the Grove ranch’s newest client, who claims to be an alien prince!
-
-
Great story!
- By Tammy on 04-29-22
By: S.E. Smith
-
Abducting Abby
- The Dragon Lords of Valdier, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 6 hrs and 30 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Abby Tanner is content to live on her mountain while she creates beautiful works of art and enjoys the peace and quiet. All that changes when a strange golden spaceship crash lands on it. Now Abby has to deal with a golden ship, a tortured alien, and an insane local sheriff.
-
-
I didn't like it as much as I thought I would
- By TheGirlFromBama on 07-08-15
By: S. E. Smith
-
Choosing Riley
- Sarafin Warriors, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 9 hrs and 9 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Riley St. Claire has always followed her own rules. When she discovers her current employer is not as law-abiding as she thought, she has to leave town in a hurry...or end up buried with the dead guy she discovered. She doesn't expect to be picked up by a passing trader from another world. As the ruling king of Sarafin, Vox d'Rojah is expected to produce a son who will be joined in marriage with the first-born daughter of the king of Valdier.
-
-
Oh my god I hate Riley
- By k james on 03-19-17
By: S. E. Smith
-
Gracie’s Touch
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 7 hrs and 59 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Gracie Jones was little more than a child when Earth was invaded by an alien species. Escaping into the subway tunnels of New York City, she hid in fear of being captured. Discovered by four men who became her protectors, she fought alongside them, and they became known as the Freedom Five. At 17, she made a decision that turned the tide in the war between Earth and the Alluthans, but in exchange, she gave up all that she knew.
-
-
David Brenin does an excellent job
- By JodyL on 09-11-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
The Dragon's Treasure
- A Seven Kingdoms Tale 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 6 hrs and 3 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Drago, King of the Isle of Dragons, is the last of the magnificent dragons of the Seven Kingdoms. Bitter and alone, he abandons the emptiness of his realm and retreats to the caverns beneath the palace. In the form of his dragon, he remains hidden from the world, protecting the Dragon's Heart, the last legacy of his people - until he is disturbed by a most unlikely thief.
-
-
Loved it!!
- By Barbara D. on 09-11-17
By: S. E. Smith
-
Behr's Rebel
- Featuring the Prequel Raia's Pets
- By: S.E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 6 hrs
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Although Raia Glossman is human, she only remembers one world - the alien one where she was raised by her Tearnat Guardian, Ander Rays. Her love for exploration and new discoveries comes from Ander. While on a quest to find the perfect birthday gift, she instead finds two very unusual, and powerful, furry friends. Now all she has to do is explain to her Tearnat guardian why they should be allowed to stay despite his “no pets” policy!
-
-
This is an EPIC movie in the making!
- By HARPER on 05-13-22
By: S.E. Smith
-
A Dragonling's Easter and The Great Easter Bunny Hunt
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 2 hrs and 9 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
New York Times and USA Today best-selling author S. E. Smith presents two heartwarming holiday stories that will transport listeners out of this world.
-
-
Mayhem and fun on two different Easter holidays
- By IreneMBBT on 08-24-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
Command Decision
- Project Gliese 581g, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 7 hrs and 39 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Lt. Commander Joshua Manson's focus on his career has taken him to many places, just not the one he has always dreamed of going: space. His sometimes controversial methods during missions have given him the reputation of being a soldier who doesn't always play by the rules. A challenging mission leaves Josh questioning if he'll have a career at all, so he is surprised when he is offered the chance to command a mission in space to investigate an unknown object. The more he learns, the more determined he is to lead it.
-
-
NOT A STAR WARS STORY!!!
- By Sharon Demond on 08-08-16
By: S. E. Smith
-
Touch of Frost
- Magic, New Mexico, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: David Brenin
- Length: 5 hrs and 57 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Lacey Adams lives in the small town of Magic, New Mexico, where she devotes herself to the animals at her Touch of Magic Animal Shelter. The strange assortment of animals helps heal the pain and loneliness inside her since the death of her husband three years before. Frost is a Star Ranger. He travels the star systems, bringing intergalactic fugitives to justice. When a maximum-security fugitive escapes from the mining prison, he is sent after him. Only this time, the fugitive has violated a major law…
-
-
Nice light listen
- By debbolsen on 06-04-18
By: S. E. Smith
-
Dust: Before and After
- The Dust Series, Book 1
- By: S. E. Smith
- Narrated by: Paul Heitsch
- Length: 6 hrs and 44 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
After fragments of a comet hit Earth, Dust wakes to discover the world as he knew it is gone. It isn't the only thing that has changed though; so has Dust. He now possesses powers that continue to grow, but they also come with a price. A deadly encounter after Dust leaves his home leads to a new discovery - other survivors. Dust soon learns that another creature has risen from the ashes, one that is determined to possess the powers he now has.
-
-
I wouldn't..
- By ProBuilder on 09-24-20
By: S. E. Smith
-
Nikhil
- Kaliszian, Book 1
- By: M.K. Eidem
- Narrated by: Ian Gordon, Jennifer Gill, Griffin Murphy, and others
- Length: 8 hrs and 9 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Mackenzie 'Mac' Wharton had agreed to guide a group that had wanted an adventure on her mountain. They got more than they bargained for when they were all abducted by a group of aliens called the Ganglians. Badly beaten and barely alive, Mac finds herself in the arms of the largest male she's ever seen. She should fear him, should be fighting to get away from him, but there was something about the massive male that called to her.
-
-
Whaaa!?!
- By Koren on 08-11-16
By: M.K. Eidem
-
Captured by the Alien Warrior
- Warrior Mates of Zivon, Book 1
- By: Presley Hall
- Narrated by: Stefanie Kay, C.J. Grey
- Length: 6 hrs and 39 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
In the far reaches of space, you have to keep your guard up to survive. But this gorgeous alien warrior is breaking down my defenses. Three years ago, alien raiders abducted me from Earth. I escaped to a remote trading planet, where I’ve scraped by and kept my identity as a human hidden...until one day, I get caught stealing from a mysterious warrior named Rok. Aliens are dangerous and untrustworthy. Or at least, that’s what I’ve always thought. But Rok is different. Despite being furious that I took something from him, he doesn’t hurt me.
-
-
Good start but pretty simple
- By Amazon Customer on 01-25-22
By: Presley Hall
-
Grim
- Tornians Book 1
- By: M.K. Eidem
- Narrated by: Commodore James, Laura Jennings
- Length: 12 hrs and 54 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
King Grim Vasteri is the strongest and most feared warrior in the Tornian Empire. He is the King of Luda, blood brother to the Emperor, and his line will die with him. He will have no offspring for no female would join with him for once he was scarred he was considered "unfit". The Tornian Empire has been dying ever since the great infection caused the birth of females to become a rarity. Since then they have been searching the known universes for compatible females.
-
-
SO DANG GOOD!!!
- By Candateshia Pafford on 02-08-15
By: M.K. Eidem
-
Overlord
- Galactic Kings, Book 1
- By: Anna Hackett
- Narrated by: Vivienne Leheny, Stephen Dexter
- Length: 7 hrs and 4 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
When an experimental starship test goes horribly wrong, a test pilot from Earth is flung across the galaxy and crash lands on the planet of a powerful alien king. Pilot Mallory West is having a really bad day. She’s crashed on an alien planet, her ship is in pieces, and her best friend Poppy, the scientist monitoring the experiment, is missing. Dazed and injured, she collapses into the arms of a big, silver-eyed warrior king. But when her rescuer cuffs her to a bed and accuses her of being a spy, Mal knows she has to escape her darkly tempting captor and find her friend.
-
-
loved it
- By Parker on 04-25-22
By: Anna Hackett
-
Cassandra's Challenge
- The Imperial Series, Book 1
- By: M.K. Eidem
- Narrated by: Ian Gordon, Jennifer Gill, Jess Friedman, and others
- Length: 22 hrs and 44 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Cassandra Chamberlain has always stood out. It's hard not to at 6'1" and 165 pounds, with jet black hair and sapphire blue eyes. And if that isn't enough, she is also brilliant, graduating from Harvard at 15, teaching at MIT at 19, and up for the prestigious Magellan Award at 25. She's never really fit in. Not with her peers, not with her contemporaries, only with her family. But everything changes when the Earth is attacked, and Cassandra and her niece, Victoria, are the only survivors. Suddenly the smartest woman on the planet has to relearn everything.
-
-
Outstanding Story And Performance!
- By Cheri on 06-24-16
By: M.K. Eidem
-
Torkel's Chosen
- A World Beyond
- By: Michelle Howard
- Narrated by: Michael Pauley
- Length: 6 hrs and 3 mins
- Unabridged
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
Torkel Alonson has had enough of being ignored and looked over by females on his adopted home world of Enotia. His pride has suffered and he must accept the painful truth. Females will never choose a male with his evil lineage despite his honorable service to his government's military.
-
-
KEPT ME ON MY EMOTIONAL SEAT'S EDGE!
- By sheryl beauchemin on 03-30-17
By: Michelle Howard
Publisher's Summary
Internationally acclaimed, New York Times and USA Today best-selling author of Science Fiction, Urban Fantasy, and Paranormal Romance, S.E. Smith, brings another action, adventure, and suspense-filled story to transport listeners out of this world!
Destin Parks will do whatever it takes to rebuild the city he calls home, even if it means working with another alien ambassador. Her predecessor left him hesitant to trust the alien diplomats assigned to Chicago's rebuilding, but Destin knows that if he refuses to work with them, he will be replaced, and he won't give them the satisfaction.
Jersula Ikera was assigned to Earth by the Alliance Council. The Council hopes her logical mind and calm demeanor will resolve the upheaval caused by the last ambassador. Jersula has fought hard for her position, and while not pleased with her current assignment to liaise with humans, she will do her best to help rebuild the world its inhabitants have destroyed. What she does not anticipate is her reaction to the hardheaded human male that she has been assigned to work with. His ability to get under her skin and ignite a flame inside her is quite alarming, mystifying, and leaves her questioning her own sanity.
When Jersula uncovers an alien cartel's plans to traffic human women and children, a near fatal attack leaves her unable to trust anyone but Destin, who can't bring himself to trust her in return. Together, Destin and Jersula race to stop the cartel before anyone is taken off-planet, but the traffickers are not the only ones they are fighting against; Waxian and Drethulan forces have targeted Earth.
Can Destin and Jersula stop the traffickers and prevent the deadly forces of the Waxians and Drethulans from destroying the progress they have made? Will the Alliance be able to protect Destin when the enemy discovers his connection to a powerful Alliance family? The battle for Earth has just become personal.
More from the same
What listeners say about Destin's Hold
Average Customer RatingsReviews - Please select the tabs below to change the source of reviews.
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- lionsheart 26
- 03-09-19
Love the action!
I really enjoyed that the story line gets more complicated and filled with action and aliens. Sex scenes are great but I enjoy having a good plot where the sex fits in perfectly. I felt that more in this book. Loved Sula, she made me laugh on more than one occasion.
I’m loving that, in this one, the love interests are flipped around. I loved the previous books, where hot alien men fall in love with human women now, in this book, you get to see an alien woman with a human man. I’d like to see a book about Trig and Beth too. I’m black and it would be the first book in the series that focuses on a black women being noticed by a Trivator. It may take a bit of research about black women but I do believe it could be a fun and humorous book.
6 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Dawm
- 06-26-17
It's Ok.
Would you try another book from S. E. Smith and/or David Brenin?
Yes
Would you be willing to try another one of David Brenin’s performances?
I enjoyed the narration, more than the story. David Brenin has a wonderful voice for this type of story he does a good job with male and female voices alike.
Any additional comments?
I am about 1/2 way through and not sure I will finish it. I liked the book with Razor but this one, not so much.
6 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- MsNing
- 10-15-17
Love
I love this series any book by se smith who s an auto buy for me every series I have read has all been very well written with the right amount of romance and action I hope to see more of the alliance series
3 people found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- JodyL
- 04-07-19
Exciting
I love how this narrator brings the excitement as well as the humor alive.
This story is about a human male finding his alien woman instead of the opposite. Destin is on the Trivator homeworks for Kayley's wedding when he meets Jersula. He attempts to save her from drowning when she really didn't need it as her species can form gills and breathe underwater.
Jersula/Sula is an ambassador. She is attending the wedding too in scope of her ambassadorial duties. She is then assigned earth as her post. She then travels back to Earth with Destin and they form a relationship.
On earth they must work together to stop a slave trafficking ring. They must also stop the Waxians and their allies from trying to destroy earth and take over.
More thrilling things are happening in this part of the series. There is definitely plenty of intrigue to keep you on the edge of your seat!
1 person found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- IreneMBBT
- 04-06-19
More action and mystery for the Alliance
Destin finds love and happiness with an alien woman. They help fend off an attack on Razor and Kali, and on Earth from enemies of the Alliance.
Too bad that bad guy Primus got away. Also, there’s still much mystery about the ring, and who’s in the conspiracy; and why Jean Paul and Luc keep sending messages; and what Jarman is doing about Jane?
The main issue that bugs me is the messages to protect Destin - but we never get any specific reason why before the end of this story. Another point dangling out there.
Brenin does a really decent job of narration.
1 person found this helpful
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- TA
- 09-29-20
Nice Change
Great to hear about a human male and an alien female. Lots of action in this story. The series is coming together very nicely. The narrator did a fabulous job as usual. In looking at the cover of the next book, I am looking forward to hearing about Edge; he is so handsome, my kind of man!
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Goldie Watson
- 08-08-20
Destin and the Princess
I promise... these two characters, created plenty of Heat! The narrator went above and beyond with boiling point love making... or Lust making. I needed a drink after each episode of their intimacy. GREAT read & a repeat or return read... if I I'm looking for some Heat!🔥🔥🔥
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Sportochick's Musings
- 07-08-20
Good but
This book was my least favorite of this series. The narration was above average and would of been a five star except for the woman’s voices which distracted me.
The plot was good but I felt the battle scenes should have been enlarged upon.
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- R. Currier
- 04-18-20
Great book!
Found this author thanks to audible escape. Great story and narration! Will be buying entire series and will look for more from this author.
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story
- Deb Johnson
- 11-25-19
Destin
Another winner. Loving the developing story line, not to sure about Female lead, seemed abit soft but still enjoyed story. Love the narrator, he brings the characters to life
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story

- Dawn
- 07-15-17
Great tie in and follow on!
This series has been a great fav and I should have gotten it ages ago but I get so swamped with all the books I do buy I almost forgot! till I saw an advert....
However, it was great to be back with these fab and sexy characters. S. E. Smith writes wonderfully and David has just a perfect voice for narrating. He brings that ultra sexy and unique voices that really match the storyline and characters.
From the very start, we're right back where we left off with Destin and Kali on Rathon, he's visiting his sister and his niece, and is really enjoying it. But he is desperate to return to Earth and to make the most of his life there.
Jursula is a great touch to the series and brings in with her politics, family and hope for Destin. There are alien messages and hints to a future... the story lines from the previous books intertwine perfectly and I couldn't help but want more of this. I really think the writer has a lot more up her sleeve for these characters and I can't wait for more.
Thank you to both S.E and David, great series. When is the next?
3 people found this helpful
-
Overall

- Kindle Customer
- 04-04-18
Destin's Hold
I enjoyed this book, from start to finish and can't wait for the next book to come out I await it with excitement...
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story

- Jamoz23
- 02-28-22
Better in audible for me.
AUDIBLE REVIEW
Better in audible for me. I ended up with a totally different reaction and take listening to this story over reading it.
Still felt it was lacking romance due to the time jump when they are on the ship going to earth but in audible I felt their connection better.
Loved how strong and competent a character Sula was.
Very frustrating though having the baddie get away time after time.
BOOK REVIEW
A great addition to this series and world but not enough romance for me.
I love the way Ms Smith manages to combine her different worlds through just a few interactions and words.
I have read all The Alliance books and even though they are not my favourite series, once picked up they cannot be put down until finished.
We finally get the human resistance leader Destin’s story and I just loved how this book really expanded and moved on from the previous ones in relation to earths future involvement with the Alliance.
I loved Destin, have since book one and really found it interesting that Jersula or Sula was his HEA.
Though it does not negate from how good this story is, giving us more interaction, insight and belief that earth will pull through, I found it was severely lacking in romance between our two H’s. Love at first sight is wonderful but I like to go along for the ride as they fall deeper in love. More a sci-fi read and less a romance which is very strange for this talented author who is usually able to combine both beautifully.
Cannot wait for Edge’s book.
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story

- Imee-B
- 07-16-17
*****Destin's Alien Princess*****
Oh wow thank you Susan for giving Destin his own book and what a story it is. Princess Sula is perfect for him, and oh wow i am so glad Trig has met Beth and i am sure they will have their story eventually. I can't wait for the next Story. Maybe a zion warrior this time? David well Mr sexy voice you are magnificent as always and I love your voice xx
-
Overall
-
Performance
-
Story

- Kindle Customer
- 06-26-17
Excellent the story continues to get better
S E Smith continues to write to good stories that are entertaining. With each book I read I find I cannot wait for the next in the series. I hope that the wait for the next one to come out is not long