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Bio:

Michael Rohd has spent thirty-five years asking the same question from increasingly systemic angles: what does it take for people who don't usually talk to each other to actually talk, and what happens when they do?

He started in 1991, running theater workshops on the secret fifth floor of a Washington DC homeless shelter — a hidden HIV clinic where people sought care anonymously because being seen there put them at risk. He didn't know yet that what he was building had a name. A decade later, he co-founded Sojourn Theatre in Portland, spent nine years at Northwestern University, then moved to ASU before joining the University of Montana in 2022 to found the Co-Lab for Civic Imagination. His book, *Theatre for Community, Conflict, and Dialogue*, has been widely translated and remains the field manual for applied civic theater practice in the US.

His current project — State of Mind, done in partnership with Montana Repertory Theater — is a touring theater and public dialogue residency on behavioral health that has now reached 37 Montana communities and more than 2,700 participants. Montana has ranked in the top five states for suicide for thirty consecutive years. The work is not incidental.

In this conversation: what kills civic imagination (certainty is first on the list), what a well-designed facilitation process makes possible that a badly designed one doesn't, why theater can't change people's deeply held beliefs but can be a gymnasium for practicing courage, what students in rural Montana keep telling adults about adult behavior, the moment a Great Falls school board meeting stopped because board members were moved to tears, and what you do with thirty years of witnessing.

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In this episode:

- The origin story: HIV workshops on a secret fifth floor in 1991
- Dwight Conquergood and the ethics of working as an outsider in communities not your own
- Augusto Boal and the discovery that someone else was already doing adjacent work
- What kills civic imagination: certainty, lack of trust, no analysis of power, racism and exclusion
- Process design: what a well-designed facilitation makes possible
- What theater can't do — and why Rohd is careful not to overclaim
- State of Mind: 37 communities, care commitments, and what young people keep saying about adults
- The Great Falls moment: a school board meeting halted by student testimony
- The most surprising finding: students surfacing adult drinking, drug use, and modeling as the obstacle to their own wellbeing
- What you do with thirty years of bearing witness

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Links:

- Michael Rohd's article on the Malta 2.0 residency (with photographs): https://michaelrohd.substack.com/p/state-of-mind-20-malta-montana
- Co-Lab for Civic Imagination at University of Montana: https://www.umcivicimagination.com/
- State of Mind project: https://www.headwatersmt.org/stateofmind-mentalhealth/
- *Theatre for Community, Conflict, and Dialogue* by Michael Rohd: https://www.heinemann.com/products/e00002.aspx
- Augusto Boal, *Games for Actors and Non-Actors*:

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The Principal Uncertainty is a podcast by George Laufenberg. It's not about finding solid ground — it's about staying oriented in open water.

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Dr. Salmaan Kamal is an internal medicine physician and addiction specialist at the VA Medical Center in West Los Angeles, where he cares for veterans experiencing homelessness. At every major crossroads — leaving Alabama for Princeton, returning home for medical school, turning down an Ivy League fellowship — he chose proximity to need and to family over prestige. In this conversation, we trace that pattern and what it taught him about trusting his own instincts. We talk about what happens when his daughter was born at 23 weeks and how surviving that changed the scale of everything that followed. And we get into the daily discipline of putting the phone away at six in the evening — what that discomfort actually feels like, and what's on the other side of it. Salmaan is one of the most thoughtful people I know. This conversation is about what it costs to stay that way.

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Salmaan Kamal, MD, was raised in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and he attended Princeton University with a focus on global health and health policy. After graduation, Kamal worked as a policy associate at the National Coalition on Health Care in Washington, D.C., where he advocated for policy reform that improved value in the U.S. health care system.

Kamal attended medical school at the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB), where he led the student-run free clinic for the uninsured. He completed internal medicine residency and chief residency at UAB Hospital, where he completed the Society of General Internal Medicine's Leadership in Health Policy Program. After residency, he completed the UCLA National Clinician Scholars Program, a health services research and public health fellowship. His work focuses on improving care for people with a history of homelessness, addiction, and criminal legal system involvement. He currently cares for people experiencing homelessness at the West Los Angeles VA Medical Center.

For more on some of Salmaan's work: https://youtu.be/VG3R6XNC1Qk?si=_MNIzk2xDRqBMB4J and https://healthpolicy.ucla.edu/our-work/health-equity-challenge/finalists/2024/salmaan-kamal

In this episode:

- Growing up in Tuscaloosa with two physician parents — and the family intervention that sent him to Princeton instead of Alabama
- The moment in the operating room when he realized he was the only one looking at the clock
- A cold email, a twenty-minute walk across campus, and finding his people
- What it means to choose a safety-net hospital over a bigger name — again and again
- His daughter's birth at 23 weeks, and how "this is not the hardest thing we've done" became a family compass
- Putting the phone away at six — what boredom actually feels like, and why productivity was the permission structure to start
- The question he's sitting with now: what happens when the constraint disappears and work becomes optional again
- What he'd build if he trusted himself completelyDr. Salmaan Kamal, MD, was raised in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and he attended Princeton University with a focus on global health and health policy.

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The Principal Uncertainty is a podcast by George Laufenberg. It's not about finding solid ground — it's about staying oriented in open water.

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Alison Dilworth is a Philadelphia-based artist, muralist, and shrine-maker whose work spans the profoundly private and the intensely public. She is also someone who has spent her adult life thinking about what it costs to hold things — grief, love, other people's stories, a kid running toward traffic — and what it means to be genuinely present to any of it.

We talk about what it means to make a shrine, and how that practice bleeds into everything else she makes. We talk about the difference between curiosity and bearing witness — and why that distinction matters more than it might seem. We talk about girlhood, about what it felt like to watch herself become visible to men before she had any framework for it, about the refusal that followed, and about the door she's walking through now on the other side of all that. We talk about a miscarriage, a snow cone, and a little girl named Dagitu who showed up at exactly the right moment without knowing why. And we talk about an elder neighbor with a shovel and a gaze that went straight through her.

Alison is one of the people who taught me — without trying to — that holding space is a real thing you can do in the world. Talking to her again after fifteen years was a genuine joy.

In this conversation:

• Making art in Philadelphia vs. New York — and why "time-rich" is the thing
• The handmade books that hold other people's stories and are never for anyone else
• What attention actually is, and what it means that it's been captured
• Curiosity as childlike wonder vs. bearing witness as ethical presence
• What it felt like to become visible to men as a girl, and the refusal that followed
• Pregnancy loss, the Magic Gardens, and Dagitu's snow cone
• Why she doesn't respect grownups — and why elders and children are the only ones worth being
• Perimenopause as threshold
• What it means to honor something invisible
• The Norris Holmes mural: Sky Woman, Eve, Alice, Miss Gloria — women who chose wisdom over safety
• Why the process is everything and the finished thing isn't hers anymore

...more of Alison's work: https://www.instagram.com/brainsoulface/

Support the show

The Principal Uncertainty is a podcast by George Laufenberg. It's not about finding solid ground — it's about staying oriented in open water.