"The enemy's chief strategy is to make dead things look alive." And wow, does it ever work! In the backdrop of yet another revelation of moral failure on the part of a Christian celebrity, Kyle and Wayne discuss how the theology of love can fail us in our desperate moments. The question remains, however: Why doesn't love and faith transform even its most ardent advocates? How can people give lip service to love and grace for decades and yet remain so utterly untransformed by it? Unless we discover God's kind of love inside his presence with us, we will remain unchanged and still act in our own expedience rather than treating others around us justly. And in the aftermath of failure, how does love restore the victims who suffer because of it and the one who fell to temptation?

Podcast Notes:

• The video version of this podcast
• My Grandmother's Hands
• Just Love, referred to in this podcast, is a book Wayne is writing with Tobie van der Westhuizen from South Africa. We hope to have it available in February 2026.

"All healing involves discomfort—but so does refusing to heal." So writes Resmaa Menakem in his book, My Grandmother's Hands, which Wayne and Sara have just finished reading. The book is about healing from traumatic pain, especially around trauma related to race. Quotes from the book draw Wayne and Klye into a discussion about clean pain and dirty pain as they apply to emotional hurt and wounds. Our responses or reactions to our own pain can either put more hurt in the world, both for ourselves and others, or our responses to pain can promote healing. The difference is whether we come at healing from an agitated state or from a calm, settled body, which we can find in the peace and presence of Jesus. This also points out why our society cannot have a reasoned, healing conversation about race today—both sides come at it from agitation and frustration.

Podcast Notes:

• The video version of this podcast
• My Grandmother's Hands
• Just Love, referred to in this podcast, is a book Wayne is writing with Tobie van der Westhuizen from South Africa. We hope to have it available in February 2026.

"Fear makes us selfish," and no fear more so than the fear of death. A book Wayne recently read provoked his thinking about death and how the fear of it can make people act in destructive ways. So, he and Kyle discuss the fear of death, and how Jesus came to free those who are enslaed to it. Instead of helping people find that freedom, Christianity has often added to people's anxiety about death by threatening them with the consequences that could lie behind it. How would people be in the world if they no longer feared dying, but saw it as a transformation, much like the caterpillar yielding to the chrysalis? Both expressed their hope for a future where relationships are restored and wounds are healed.

Podcast Notes:

• The video recording of this podcast
• Just Love, referred to in this podcast, is a book Wayne is writing with Tobie van der Westhuizen from South Africa. We hope to have it available in February 2026.

"Love fulfills the law because it fills us." After a brief conversation about a perspective shift in challenging times and sharing inexhaustible love, Kyle and Wayne discuss finding our fullness in him. They plough through an article about desire. It turns out humans enjoy getting the thing they desire than having it. The dopamine hit that comes from procuring what's desired doesn't last long, which is why so many are almost immediately out seeking the next new thing. What if the root of our desires is for God himself? Trying to fill that desire with anything else would always fail. Finding our fullness it him would let us live with gratitude and appreciation, no matter what we possess, rather than the constant yearning and dissatisfaction.

Podcast Notes:

• The video recording of this podcast.
• A $100,000 New Car Won't Make You Happy - Article Wayne read from
• Just Love, referred to in this podcast, is a book Wayne is writing with Tobie van der Westhuizen from South Africa. We hope to have it available in February 2026.
• Lifestream Store with 25% discount through Christmas with the promo code: Christmas 25

How will the bride of Christ be revealed in the world, especially since she is so fractured into thousands of denominations? Perhaps there is already a parable of that in the Creation, in the murmuration of starlings and the schools of fish. Scientists call it behavioral synchronization, but maybe it is something more. It now seems that for a brief time, starlings and fish become part of an interconnected organism. Kyle and Wayne discuss the idea of "unmanaged community" and how it reflects the organic, spiritual connections among believers. These connections, often spontaneous and unstructured, can be more authentic than human-managed communities. While we get glimpses of it now and then, perhaps the time is coming for a global "murmuration" of believers that comprise the Bride of Christ. Wouldn't that be awesome?

Podcast Notes:

• The video recording of this podcast.
• Murmuration Video - not quite the one Wayne referred to. And here's another one with music.
• The Secret of Secrets
• Finding Church by Wayne Jacobsen
• Lifestream Store with 25% discount through Christmas with the promo code: Christmas 25

In a world that seeks to crush us into its mold, having the space to contemplate, explore, question, and grow is a rare and delicious treat. That's where Wayne and Kyle landed today after reading an email from a listener. That thread ran through their other conversation about seeing beyond the home team/away team binary that religion throws at us and how listening to God has changed over the course of their lives. They also discuss how we can better facilitate that space for others instead of trying to cram the breath of the Spirit into a curriculum, presentation, or system.

Podcast Notes:

• The video recording of this podcast.
• When the Maps Run Out - the podcast Wayne referred to in this podcast.
• Lifestream Store with 25% discount through Christmas with the promo code: Christmas 25

Kyle's away this week, so an old friend joins in. Brad Cummings was co-host of The God Journey for 700+ episodes, and joined us most recently on #1000. Many of you asked to have him back again, so he joins Wayne for a conversation about equipping people to engage a real presence when they give their hearts to Jesus. Instead of training them to be good Christians, might it be more valuable to help them learn to live from their hearts in growing communion with God? This is the essence of the New Covenant, not to be led by programs and rituals, but to connect to God's presence in them so that they can be drawn into the adventure of following him and find increasing freedom in his transformation.

Podcast Notes:

• Sorry, we did not make a video of this podcast
• A Man Like No Other, which Brad talks about on the podcast

It was a tale of two cities over consecutive weekends that got this conversation going. Wayne shares about his experience with former 2x2 members in the South, and then he went with Sara to their 50th college reunion at Oral Roberts University. As Wayne processes those experiences with Kyle, they find themselves contrasting performative Christianity to a doctrine or program and a transformational journey that comes from an ever-deepening engagement with God's love. As part of that conversation, they read through Psalm 15 as it describes the company of the just, where God wants to make his presence known.

Podcast Notes:

• The video recording of this podcast