What if the "necessary" animal research we rely on is breaking the people who conduct it?

In this episode of Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, host Dr. Johnny Lieberman speaks with Madeline Krasno, Executive Director of Justify and a former primate lab caretaker at UW Madison. Drawing from her two years caring for over 500 monkeys, preparing minimal "enrichment," administering meds, and witnessing daily stress and injuries. Madeline exposes the moral injury and compassion fatigue that plague lab workers. She shares how her experiences led to free speech lawsuits against UW Madison and the NIH, sparking national conversations on transparency. The discussion dives into systemic issues: stressed animals yielding unreliable data (with ~100% failure rates in human translation), lack of enforcement for violations, and the urgent need to shift toward animal-free technologies. Madeline also explains Justify's mission to support lab workers through confidential spaces, resources, and community-building to heal and advocate for change. This episode challenges assumptions about animal experimentation's validity and ethics, highlighting its links to human health, worker well-being, and public policy.

Top 3 Takeaways

• Lab Workers Face Profound Psychological Harm: Caretakers in animal research endure moral injury and compassion fatigue from witnessing suffering, with little support, highlighting that humans, too, pay a heavy price in this system.
• Animal Suffering in Labs Undermines Scientific Validity: Monkeys and other animals live in tiny cages under constant stress, leading to unreliable data; nearly 100% of experiments fail to translate to humans, questioning the necessity of such research.
• Enforcement and Transparency Are Severely Lacking: Violations like injuries or poor conditions often go unpunished with just "slaps on the wrist," while whistleblowers face retaliation—calling for better oversight and a shift to ethical, non-animal methods.

About the Guest – Madeline Krasno

Madeline Krasno is a former primate lab worker turned advocate for compassion and transparency in science. Her successful free speech lawsuits against UW Madison and the NIH, featured in the Washington Post, sparked national dialogue about the hidden human and animal costs of experimentation.

Today, she is Executive Director and co-founder of Justify, a nonprofit creating space for current and former animal research professionals to process their experiences, reclaim their voices, and help build a more ethical, human-relevant future in science. Madeline holds a master's degree in Humane Education from Valparaiso University and a dual bachelor's degree in Zoology and Child Development from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her background spans animal care, wildlife rehabilitation, curriculum development, public speaking, outreach, and community building.

🔗 Read more about Madeline Krasno:

• Website: https://whenwejustify.org
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madelinekrasno
• Instagram: @justify.global

About the Show

Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.

About the Host:

Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.

In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).

Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

If you've ever considered buying a puppy from a pet store or online, this episode will change your perspective forever.

Dr. Johnny Lieberman sits down with seasoned undercover investigator Pete Paxton to uncover the grim realities of puppy mills, the massive breeding operations that supply pet stores with dogs raised in filth, neglect, and suffering. Pete shares firsthand accounts from over two decades of investigations, including wire cages piled with feces, dogs driven "cage crazy," and breeders who prioritize profit over welfare. The conversation exposes how pet stores mislead consumers with glossy ads and false claims of "reputable breeders," while USDA inspections often fail to enforce even basic standards due to inherent conflicts of interest.

Beyond the shock, Dr. Lieberman and Pete discuss the broader implications: the health risks to puppies (and buyers), the environmental ties to climate disasters increasing shelter overcrowding, and why adoption from shelters or fosters saves lives and provides better-matched, healthier pets. This episode empowers listeners to make compassionate choices, reject the "adopt don't shop" myths, and support real solutions like volunteering and fostering, without judgment, but with eye-opening facts.

Top 3 Takeaways

• Adopt, Don't Shop: When seeking a new dog, prioritize adoption from shelters or foster-based rescues over pet stores or online sellers. This saves lives from overcrowded shelters, avoids supporting puppy mills' cruelty, and often provides healthier, better-socialized pets with known personalities. Research local options, visit, and match based on your lifestyle for a fulfilling bond.
• Focus on Personality Over Breed: Ignore breed stereotypes when choosing a dog; emphasize personality traits that fit your family, like energy level or compatibility with kids/pets. Shelters assess and train dogs for better matches, reducing behavioral issues. Volunteer at rescues to observe firsthand, ensuring a happier, more suitable companion without fueling profit-driven breeding.
• Volunteer or Foster to Help: Combat puppy mill cruelty by volunteering at shelters: walk dogs, assist with training, or foster temporarily to free space and prepare pets for adoption. This directly saves lives amid rising disasters displacing animals. Start small, contact local groups like Humane Society, and contribute time over money for ethical impact.

About the Guest:

Pete Paxton is the Director of Investigations at SEED (Strategies for Ethical and Environmental Development), where he leads animal cruelty investigations focused on factory farms and pollution. With over two decades of experience since 2001, Pete has gone undercover at puppy mills, pet stores, slaughterhouses, and commercial fishing operations. His work has been featured in HBO documentaries like Dealing Dogs and Death on a Factory Farm, as well as National Geographic's Animal Undercover. He is co-author of the book Rescue Dogs, which outlines solutions to animal exploitation.

Websites: ethicalstrategies.org, humaneworld.org, and capweb.org.

About the Show

Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.

About the Host

Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.

In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).

Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

If you’ve ever trusted a label at the grocery store—cage-free, humane, organic—this episode will challenge everything you think you know.

Dr. Johnny Lieberman welcomes undercover investigator Erin Wing, who spent years working inside factory farms to document what the animal agriculture industry works aggressively to conceal. What Erin describes is not isolated abuse, but standard operating procedure: chickens packed by the tens of thousands into dark sheds filled with toxic ammonia fumes, dairy cows repeatedly impregnated, separated from their calves, beaten when their bodies give out, and salmon raised in overcrowded tanks swimming in their own waste while disease spreads unchecked.

This conversation moves beyond shock value. It confronts the deeper systems at play—how animals are reduced to units of production, how consumer labels are engineered to soothe guilt rather than reflect reality, and how emotional distance allows cruelty to become normalized.

Dr. Lieberman and Erin explore the moral cost of convenience, the public health implications of industrial farming, and the difficult but necessary role of undercover investigations in exposing truth. The episode doesn’t demand perfection—but it does insist on honesty, awareness, and informed choice.

• What undercover investigations reveal when no one thinks they’re being watched
• Why “humane,” “cage-free,” and “natural” labels often hide more than they reveal
• The physical and emotional suffering built into industrial chicken, dairy, and fish farming
• How dairy cows and their calves are systematically separated—and why it matters
• The hidden public health risks of animals raised in filth and overcrowding
• Why consumer ignorance is not accidental—but engineered
• What informed choice really looks like when the truth is uncomfortable

Erin Wing is an undercover investigator and animal advocate with Animal Outlook. Erin has spent years working inside chicken farms, dairy operations, and salmon hatcheries to document conditions the animal agriculture industry works aggressively to keep hidden. Their investigations have helped expose systemic cruelty, inform legal advocacy, and empower consumers with truth.

To learn more about Erin’s work and ongoing investigations, visit animaloutlook.org.

Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.

Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.

In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).

Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.