Can storytelling really be the most valuable skill in podcasting- and in business?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Laura Joyce Davis, CEO of Narrative Podcasts and Managing Editor of the Stanford Storytelling Project, about the power of narrative podcasting. Laura shares how she went from launching Shelter in Place on the first day of lockdown to producing 200 episodes, founding a company, and now teaching podcasting at Stanford and Google.

As she puts it:

Here are some insightful moments within the episode:

• Why storytelling is the most valuable skill in podcasting
• How Shelter in Place became both a lifeline and a launchpad
• Why the revision process matters more than quick wins
• The importance of separating ‘creator brain’ from ‘marketer brain’
• Building an audience before launching a podcast
• How AI can serve as a creative companion, not a replacement

Laura Joyce Davis is the CEO of Narrative Podcasts and Managing Editor of the Stanford Storytelling Project. She created the award-winning Shelter in Place, has trained dozens of emerging podcasters, and now teaches storytelling at Stanford, Stanford Continuing Studies, and Google. She is also writing a forthcoming book on narrative podcasting.

Connect with Laura on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurajoycedavis/

Learn more at Narrative Podcasts: www.narrativepodcasts.com

00:00 – Storytelling as a vital skill

01:47 – Can you really make money in podcasting?

05:00 – How narrative podcasting builds life skills

07:28 – Shelter in Place: a pandemic project becomes a career

11:12 – Learning by doing: 200 episodes, zero training wheels

13:06 – Why revision is where the magic happens

17:52 – Building Narrative Podcasts to train new creators

22:12 – From burnout to Stanford

25:29 – The mindset shift that makes or breaks creators

29:08 – Creator brain vs. marketer brain

32:31 – The community power of podcasting

33:28 – If starting over, what Laura would do differently

37:31 – AI as a creative companion

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Alice Florence Orr, Staff Writer and Managing Editor at Podcast Review and BBC Radio contributor, about the realities of podcast PR, pitching, and discoverability. Alice shares the common mistakes creators make when pitching their shows, how to think beyond “industry validation,” and why audio-only podcasts still have a unique space in the market.

As she puts it:

• Why “selling IP” isn’t the only way to make money in podcasting
• The pitfalls of podcast PR and what makes a pitch stand out
• How independent creators can leverage ads, subscriptions, and branded partnerships
• Why discoverability remains the industry’s biggest challenge
• The future of audio-only podcasts in a video-saturated market

Alice Florence Orr is the Managing Editor of Podcast Review and a BBC Radio contributor. Her work focuses on podcast criticism, media strategy, and discoverability, helping creators understand how to reach new audiences. She is also an active voice on LinkedIn, writing about podcasting, media, and culture.

🔗 Connect with Alice on LinkedIn

📖 Read her work on Podcast Review

00:52 – The Money Question | Where Alice sees revenue opportunities

01:44 – Independent Podcasting | Models beyond the big network buyout

04:21 – Reviewing Genres | Why niches and listening habits matter

07:25 – Finding Your Audience | Reverse-engineering discoverability

09:02 – Pitching Mistakes | What not to do in press releases

13:19 – What Reviewers Need | How to make your podcast pitch stand out

17:17 – Discoverability Challenges | Why apps alone won’t get you found

23:38 – Getting Into Podcasting | Alice’s career journey and BBC contributions

27:34 – Looking Ahead | Why audio still matters in a video-first world

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, recorded before his unexpected passing last week, Todd Cochran, Founder & CEO of Blubrry Podcasting, joined Norma Jean Belenky to share his perspective on the realities of monetization, the future of the industry, and why creators must first serve their audiences.

As James Cridland wrote in an obituary published in Podnews, “Todd Cochrane was a fierce proponent of open RSS and building your podcast on your own website… Ever willing to help progress the industry, Todd was always interested to learn and make friends with anyone in podcasting.” His words in this conversation are a reminder of just how much one person can shape an industry.

As he put it:

• Why podcasters should build community before chasing ads
• The download thresholds that really matter to advertisers (10K–50K)
• Subscription models and listener support as alternative revenue streams
• Why transparency and vulnerability create lasting trust
• How independent voices and audio-first strategies continue to shape the industry

Todd Cochran was the Founder & CEO of Blubrry Podcasting, a pioneer in hosting and monetization. A Navy veteran, author of one of the first books on podcasting, and longtime host of Geek News Central, Todd helped establish podcasting as a professional medium. His leadership empowered countless independent podcasters to find their voice, their audience, and their sustainability.

We’re deeply grateful to have recorded this conversation with Todd, and we honor his legacy in podcasting.

01:26 – Monetization Realities | Why most creators shouldn’t chase ads first

04:22 – The Numbers That Matter | When agencies start paying attention

07:32 – Beyond Ads | Subscriptions and listener support

10:16 – Building Trust | Transparency, vulnerability, and audience connection

13:46 – Early Days | Hosting, GoDaddy, and growing the ecosystem

19:11 – Hitting Record | Why starting is the hardest—and most important—step

24:27 – Practical Advice | “Record for your audience. Write for Google.”

32:39 – From Niche to Mainstream | The growth of podcasting at scale

36:16 – Future of Revenue | Ads, acquisitions, and industry shifts

37:14 – Why Audio-First Still Wins | Todd’s advice for new podcasters

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Dan Misener, co-founder of Bumper, about why the download has lost its value as the industry’s currency and what new measures should define growth. Dan shares how brands like Ford and Shopify are rethinking ROI, what top-of-funnel really means for branded podcasts, and why audience clarity is the key to sustainable strategy.

As he puts it:

• The limits of downloads as a measure of success
• Verified listeners, time spent, and playback as stronger metrics
• Why branded podcasts often win on top-of-funnel strategy
• What Bumper has learned from working with companies like Ford and Shopify
• How creators and publishers should define growth before chasing it

Dan Misener is the co-founder of Bumper, a podcast growth and strategy company. Previously head of audience development at Pacific Content, Dan has worked with brands including Ford, Shopify, Slack, and Dell on award-winning shows. With a background in public broadcasting at CBC, he has become one of podcasting’s most influential voices on measurement, growth, and the evolving value of audio.

Connect with Dan on LinkedIn.

Learn more at wearebumper.com.

01:15 – Where’s the Money? | How brands monetize podcasts directly and indirectly

04:15 – Top of Funnel | What Shopify taught Dan about brand shows

07:33 – Brand ROI | What Ford and the Met want from podcasting

12:23 – The Death of the Download | Why it’s no longer the right yardstick

16:47 – Verified Listeners & Playback | Measuring people, not impressions

20:26 – Audience Clarity | Why knowing who you serve drives growth

24:23 – The Hidden Work | Why good podcasting looks effortless but isn’t

27:54 – Redefining Growth | Asking the right questions before you scale

28:46 – Looking Ahead | A new era of measurement and sustainability

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At what point does a podcast become a business that advertisers want to invest in?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan sit down with Heather Osgood, founder of True Native Media and host of The Podcast Advertising Playbook, to talk about what really matters in podcast monetization today.

Heather shares nearly a decade of experience connecting podcasters and advertisers, from the realities of download thresholds to how long it takes to close a brand deal, to why host-read ads remain central even as programmatic grows.

As she puts it:

• Why podcasters need to start thinking of themselves as content creators across platforms
• The ongoing strength of host-read ads and where programmatic fits in
• What 5K, 25K, and 100K monthly downloads really mean in ad sales
• How long it can actually take to secure brand dollars (hint: it’s not overnight)
• Why technology and easier buying paths are the next frontier for podcast ads

Heather Osgood is the founder of True Native Media, a podcast representation agency specializing in podcast advertising. With a background in radio sales and a love for podcasting, Heather has become an influential voice in the space. She’s a frequent speaker at events like Podcast Movement and PodFest, and she hosts the podcast, The Podcast Advertising Playbook, where she educates creators and advertisers alike on how to make podcast ads work. When she’s not connecting brands and shows, she’s hiking or spending time with her family at the beach.

Connect with Heather on LinkedIn.

Learn more at truenativemedia.com.

01:29 – Where’s the Money? | Why advertising still drives podcast revenue

03:21 – Podcasters or Content Creators? | Shifting how the industry thinks about influence

04:58 – Host-Read vs. Programmatic | What listeners and advertisers actually prefer

07:55 – Starting True Native Media | Heather’s journey from radio to podcast ad sales

14:13 – Brand Dollars Take Time | Why long sales cycles are part of the process

19:07 – Download Thresholds | 5K, 25–50K, and 100K monthly downloads explained

21:33 – Lessons Learned | Why Heather wishes she’d built tech sooner

23:41 – Looking Ahead | Podcasters as influencers and the next stage for ad buys

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How can pay transparency change the podcast industry for the better?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Erin McGregor, Program Manager at the Association of Independents in Radio (AIR), about the newly released 2025 AIR Rate Guide and why setting industry standards matters for freelancers and hiring managers alike. Erin shares insights on building sustainable careers, the role of mentorship, and how community is often the most valuable investment independent audio professionals can make.

As she puts it:

Here are some insightful moments from the episode:

• How AIR’s 2025 Rate Guide was built and why it’s a critical industry tool
• The link to AIR's 2025 Rate Guide: https://airmedia.org/tools/2025-rate-guide
• The most common reasons freelancers undercharge for their work
• How community and peer networks can shape professional growth
• The role of advocacy in protecting independent creators
• Why mentorship can accelerate your career in audio
• The future of audience engagement and live podcast events

Erin McGregor is the Program Manager at AIR, where she oversees SoundPath, AIR’s training platform for the audio industry, and leads initiatives in pay transparency, mentorship, and professional development. A former freelancer and self-taught audio producer, Erin brings deep experience in community building and creator advocacy.

Connect with Erin on LinkedIn

Learn more at AIR Media and SoundPath

01:13 – About the Rate Guide | Why pay transparency matters

06:04 – Common Underpayment Traps | Why freelancers earn less than the standard

09:29 – AIR’s Role | Advocacy, opportunities, and resources

12:33 – The Water Cooler Effect | Building safe spaces for freelancers

16:48 – Erin’s Career Journey | From freelancer to AIR leadership

23:36 – Thinking Like a Business | Setting a bottom line

25:43 – Underused Resources | How AIR supports independents

26:59 – Mentorship Marketplace | Getting guidance when you need it

31:02 – What’s Next | Audience engagement and live events

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How do political and narrative podcasts carve out sustainable monetization strategies in today’s ad-driven industry?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Giancarlo Bizzarro, VP of Sales at Crooked Media, about how the company approaches podcast monetization in a shifting media landscape. From balancing content with ad sales to cultivating long-term client partnerships, Giancarlo breaks down the strategies that keep Crooked at the forefront of political and cultural podcasting.

As he puts it:

“Act as if you’re the client’s ad agency.”

Here are some insightful moments within the episode:

• Crooked Media’s current revenue mix: direct sales, programmatic, branded content, subscriptions, and video
• How limited series and partnerships (World Corrupt with Men in Blazers) help “de-risk” new show launches
• Why Giancarlo says “a baked-in ad is king” and how it compares with programmatic in today’s market
• Real CPM benchmarks in podcasting today | From high teens to mid-twenties, and when higher pricing makes sense
• Giancarlo’s career journey from the Obama campaign to Oxford Road, WME, Cadence13, and now Crooked Media
• A sales philosophy built on acting as if you’re the client’s ad agency, not just a vendor
• What’s next for Crooked Media: Crooked Con, video expansion, global growth, and delivering the best audience and advertiser experience

Giancarlo Bizzarro is the Vice President of Sales at Crooked Media, where he leads advertising and sponsorship strategy across the company’s podcast network. With extensive experience in media sales, Giancarlo has shaped how Crooked positions its shows in a crowded marketplace, balancing the demands of advertisers with the unique voice of politically and culturally influential podcasts.

Connect with Giancarlo on LinkedIn.

01:22 – Today’s Revenue Mix | Direct, programmatic, subscriptions, branded content, custom segments, and video

02:44 – Limited Series & De-Risking | How Crooked launches shows and protects investment with feed strategy

07:09 – Case Study: World Corrupt | Men in Blazers × Pod Save the World collaboration and why it worked

10:14 – Baked-In vs. Programmatic | Why baked-in is still the “king” of ad units for brands and audiences

14:10 – CPMs & Pricing | Where the market lands today and when higher CPMs make sense

18:49 – GC's Career Path to Crooked | From the Obama campaign to Oxford Road, Cadence13, WME, and Crooked

23:44 – Sales Philosophy | Acting as the client’s agency and building long-term partnerships

27:57 – What’s Next for Crooked | CrookedCon

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What can indie podcasters learn from building a podcast software company from the ground up?

In this episode of PodBiz, Norma Jean Belenky speaks with Mark Asquith, co-founder and Managing Director of Captivate, about building a service-first software company, Captivate’s acquisition by Global, and how the independent creator economy continues to evolve. Mark shares why putting people and experience first has been his guiding principle- and how that mindset benefits both software companies and podcasters alike.

As he puts it:

Here are some insightful moments from the episode:

• How podcasting’s revenue streams have diversified since 2014
• Why the top 1% of shows will always attract the biggest ad spend—and how indie creators can still win
• How Captivate built a loyal audience through service, not just software
• Lessons from Captivate’s acquisition by Global and what changed afterward
• Why putting experience first is the best growth strategy
• What the rise of mainstream podcast awareness means for indie creators

Mark Asquith is the co-founder and Managing Director of Captivate, a UK-based podcast hosting, analytics, and monetization platform acquired by Global in 2021. Known as “That British Podcast Guy,” Mark is one of the United Kingdom’s original podcasting experts and is recognized worldwide as an insightful, thought-provoking, and actionable podcast industry keynote speaker. A creator, startup founder, and advocate for independent podcasters for over a decade, Mark has built his career on a service-first approach, focusing on brand experience, community, and creator support.

Connect with Mark on LinkedIn

Learn more at Captivate.fm

00:29 – Where’s the Money? | How podcast monetization has evolved

03:51 – New Revenue Streams | Live events, subscriptions, fan engagement

04:59 – How Mark Got Started | From pop culture podcasting to software founder

08:10 – People First | Why service and experience drive success

12:21 – Captivate’s Differentiator | More than a software company

14:07 – Starting Over? | Why he wouldn’t change a thing

15:33 – The Global Acquisition | How it happened and what stayed the same

19:17 – The Ripple Effect | How mainstream deals helped indie podcasters

PodBiz is the podcast about the business of podcasting. Hosted by industry veterans Norma Jean Belenky and John Kiernan, the show features conversations with creators, executives, and platform leaders to answer one question: Where’s the money in podcasting?

Each episode dives into monetization strategy, adtech, branded content, IP development, and audience growth. Guests include leaders from Acast, Captivate, Crooked Media, Buzzsprout, True Native Media, Podfest, and more.

Learn more: njbmedia.co | thepodhouseproductions.com

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.