Criminal law is a "very human business." For barrister Emma Moss, it is the space where she stands as the "thin line" between the power of the state and an individual’s liberty. But Emma’s path to the bar wasn't a straight line. It was a journey of pivots, from psychology and HR to returning to law school as a mature student and parent.

In this episode of The Law and Beyond Show, host Chantal McNaught sits down with Emma to explore the expanding legal universe through the lens of criminal defence and legal aid. They dive deep into the emotional weight of the work, the resource imbalances in our justice system, and the vital importance of building a sustainable career through community and "give back."

Emma shares her "win or learn" philosophy, offering raw and practical advice for anyone navigating a non-traditional legal path or struggling to balance empathy with the risk of burnout.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The Non-Linear Path: Pivoting from early setbacks to a successful second career in law.
• The Reality of Legal Aid: Standing up for access to justice despite significant resource gaps.
• The Empathy Trap: How to "care just enough" to be effective without burning out.
• Resilience & Self-Care: Moving away from destructive coping mechanisms toward community-based support.
• Breaking Barriers: Why mentoring and "owning your space" are essential for the next generation of lawyers.
• The Tech Mismatch: Emma’s take on the "New Age of Sexism" in AI and why the law is struggling to catch up.

About Our Guest:
Emma Moss is a criminal defence barrister based in New Zealand. A passionate advocate for access to justice, she serves on community law boards and the Law Association’s Next Gen committee, dedicated to breaking down barriers for mature students and diverse practitioners entering the law.

Support the Show:
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on Spotify! It helps others find People in Legal and the "Law and Beyond" show, and supports our mission to highlight the people shaping the future of the expanding legal universe.

What does a legal tech career look like when you're not a lawyer? In this episode of the Law and Beyond Show, host Chantal McNaught sits down with Claudia Simpson, Senior Data Governance and Business Analyst at Law in Order, to explore how curiosity, saying yes to opportunities, and a people-first approach can build a powerful career in the expanding legal universe.

From litigation support clerk to leading data governance and privacy initiatives, Claudia's journey is a masterclass in non-linear career growth. But more importantly, she shares practical wisdom on navigating AI adoption, building ethical guardrails into innovation, and why governance isn't a hurdle—it's an enabler.

Perfect for aspiring legal tech professionals, law firm leaders, and anyone curious about the intersection of technology, ethics, and society.

Follow Law In Order on LinkedIn to stay connected with updates and insights exploring all things legal tech - from everyday workflows to responsible AI adoption across the industry.

In this Episode:

00:00 – Cold Open: "Ask 'Should We?' Not Just 'Can We?'"

00:20 – Welcome & Claudia's Career Journey

05:30 – What Does a Business Analyst Do?

09:30 – Sociology & People-First Approach to Tech

17:30 – AI, Ethics, and Guardrails

24:30 – Governance as an Enabler & AML Compliance

31:00 – The Isolation Card Question & Book Chat

34:30 – Closing & Ada Lovelace Reference

Books

• Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil - by V.E. Schwab
• The Way of Kings and Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson
• Principles for Dealing with the Changing World Order by Ray Dalio

❓ 𝗗𝗼 𝘆𝗼𝘂 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮𝗻 𝗜𝗧 𝗿𝗼𝗮𝗱𝗺𝗮𝗽… 𝗼𝗿 𝗷𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗮 𝗹𝗶𝘀𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗷𝗲𝗰𝘁𝘀 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗻𝗼 𝗰𝗹𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗥𝗢𝗜?That question summed up a powerful People in Legal conversation filmed live at the iManage Conference in Melbourne (Nov 2025).Host David Woolstencroft spoke with the Harbor team — Scott Sonter, Scott Cooper, and Damian Jeal — about what law firm CIOs and CTOs are really dealing with right now.And it is not just “𝘄𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘁𝗲𝗰𝗵 𝘀𝗵𝗼𝘂𝗹𝗱 𝘄𝗲 𝗯𝘂𝘆 𝗻𝗲𝘅𝘁?”The Harbor team shared insights from working across risk, finance, document management and managed services, including:• 𝙬𝙝𝙮 𝙨𝙤𝙢𝙚 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙢𝙨 𝙢𝙤𝙫𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙘𝙡𝙤𝙪𝙙 𝙗𝙪𝙩 𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙨𝙩𝙧𝙪𝙜𝙜𝙡𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙖𝙘𝙘𝙚𝙨𝙨 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙪𝙨𝙚 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙞𝙧 𝙙𝙖𝙩𝙖 • 𝙝𝙤𝙬 𝙣𝙚𝙬 𝙨𝙮𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙢𝙨 𝙘𝙖𝙣 𝙖𝙘𝙘𝙞𝙙𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 𝙘𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙩𝙚 𝙢𝙤𝙧𝙚 𝙨𝙞𝙡𝙤𝙨 𝙬𝙞𝙩𝙝𝙤𝙪𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙧𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙚𝙜𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙨𝙩𝙧𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙜𝙮 • 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝘼𝙄 𝙞𝙨 𝙜𝙚𝙣𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙚𝙡𝙮 𝙝𝙚𝙡𝙥𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙛𝙞𝙧𝙢𝙨 𝙩𝙤𝙙𝙖𝙮 𝙫𝙨 𝙬𝙝𝙚𝙧𝙚 𝙞𝙩 𝙞𝙨 𝙨𝙩𝙞𝙡𝙡 𝙟𝙪𝙨𝙩 𝙝𝙮𝙥𝙚 • 𝙬𝙝𝙮 𝙍𝙊𝙄 𝙤𝙛𝙩𝙚𝙣 𝙘𝙤𝙢𝙚𝙨 𝙛𝙧𝙤𝙢 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙘𝙤𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣𝙨 𝙗𝙚𝙩𝙬𝙚𝙚𝙣 𝙨𝙮𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙢𝙨, 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙝𝙚𝙖𝙫𝙮 𝙘𝙪𝙨𝙩𝙤𝙢𝙞𝙨𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 • 𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙝𝙤𝙬 𝙘𝙝𝙖𝙣𝙜𝙚 𝙢𝙖𝙣𝙖𝙜𝙚𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙞𝙨 𝙤𝙛𝙩𝙚𝙣 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙝𝙞𝙙𝙙𝙚𝙣 𝙧𝙚𝙖𝙨𝙤𝙣 𝙥𝙧𝙤𝙟𝙚𝙘𝙩𝙨 𝙛𝙖𝙞𝙡What stood out most was Harbor’s 𝘄𝗵𝗼𝗹𝗲-𝗼𝗳-𝗹𝗶𝗳𝗲𝗰𝘆𝗰𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗿𝗼𝗮𝗰𝗵 — advising on strategy, helping select the right solutions, implementing them, and then staying involved through managed services. That broader view means they are not just delivering projects, they are helping firms make better decisions before major budget is committed.For law firm tech leaders under pressure to modernise, secure data, support lawyers and still prove ROI, that kind of market-wide perspective is invaluable.Because the real question is not “Which tool should we buy next?”It is “Are we investing in the right things, in the right order, for the right outcomes?”Share your thoughts with us!hashtag#PeopleInLegal hashtag#LegalTech hashtag#LawFirmIT hashtag#CIO hashtag#CTO hashtag#iManage hashtag#DigitalTransformation hashtag#BusinessOfLaw