The historic 1219 meeting between St. Francis of Assisi and Sultan Malik al-Kamil during the Fifth Crusade is a powerful (and often overlooked) example of peacemaking and respectful dialogue between Christians and Muslims. While most people only know Francis’s side of the story, the Sultan’s openness and courage were just as important. Their surprising friendship still offers a hopeful model today for bridging deep divisions, reducing polarization, and having real conversations across religious and cultural lines.

Fr. Michael Calabria is a Franciscan friar at the Province of Our Lady of Guadalupe and director of the Center for Arab and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure University. With more than 40 years of experience in the Middle East and Islamic world, he first fell in love with the region as an Egyptology student doing archaeological work in Egypt (BA Johns Hopkins, MA Brown). After working as an academic librarian in New York, he joined the Franciscan Order in 1996, later earning divinity degrees and a PhD in Islamic Studies from the University of Exeter in England. He has lived in Cairo multiple times, ministered in a leprosarium, and taught English at a Coptic Catholic seminary. Since 2003 he has taught Arabic and Islamic Studies at St. Bonaventure University, where he founded the Center for Arab and Islamic Studies. He is the author of the 2022 book The Language of the Taj Mahal, which explores the Qur’anic inscriptions on the monument, and has appeared in documentaries including The Sultan and the Saint (2016) and Islam’s Greatest Stories of Love (2025).

(00:00:01) Introduction

(00:03:20) Historical Context

(00:09:37) Francis’ Arrival in Egypt and His Mission

(00:16:19) The Encounter with Sultan Malik al-Kamil

(00:23:20) Francis’ Counter-Cultural Approach

(00:27:15) The Sultan’s Impact on Francis

(00:31:29) Francis’ Legacy and Missionary Approach

(00:36:26) Bridging Faiths

(00:42:55) Lessons from History: Interfaith Dialogue and Vatican II

(00:45:12) This Story’s Relevance Today

(00:48:00) The Nature of Goodness: Understanding Faith Beyond Labels

(00:52:02) Religion, Conflict, and the Human Element

(00:56:03) The Enrichment of Faith: Learning from Other Traditions

(01:02:34) The Call to Open Hearts: Interfaith Dialogue in Action

(01:09:20) Conclusion

What does it mean to age with grace, to let go without losing hope, and to face life’s deepest losses with open hands? What does it mean to move toward spiritual maturity as life unfolds, and how can a spirituality of letting go help take us there? In this conversation, Fr. Ronald Rolheiser joins Off the Page to explore themes from his powerful new book, Insane for the Light: A Spirituality for Our Wisdom Years, which was released on October 28, 2025. From the raw beauty of metanoia to the transformative power of passivity, Fr. Ron reveals how suffering, helplessness, and even death can become our greatest gifts—if we dare to live while we’re dying.

Ronald Rolheiser, OMI, is a Roman Catholic priest and member of the Missionary Oblates of Mary Immaculate. He is a theologian, professor, award-winning author, and served as president of the Oblate School of Theology. He is known for his lectures, globally-syndicated column "In Exile," and his bestselling books The Holy Longing and Sacred Fire.

The show notes are available here.

(00:00:01) Introduction

(00:01:57) Spirituality of Aging

(00:03:46) Wisdom Years

(00:05:41) Insane for the Light: Story Behind the Title

(00:07:45) Getting Our Lives Together, Giving Our Lives Away

(00:12:53) Reflection No. 1: Seven Movements Toward Spiritual Maturity

(00:14:32) Giving Your Death Away

(00:15:58) Metanoia and Paranoia

(00:20:36) Pondering: Carrying and Transforming Tension

(00:27:27) How Pain Can Deepen Us

(00:34:59) Dark Nights of Faith

(00:38:37) “My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?”

(00:42:57) When the Power Point Stops Working

(00:43:53) Reflection No. 2: Take On Your Higher Mind

(00:46:43) Understanding More By Not Understanding

(00:48:06) Activity and Passivity

(00:54:10) When You Feel Helpless

(00:58:16) Reflection No. 3: Activity and Passivity

(00:58:30) The Gift and Challenge of Passivity (Passion)

(01:03:50) When You’re Told You Don’t Have Much Time to Live

(01:07:07) A Creed for Giving Your Life and Death Away

(01:09:15) Conclusion

St. Francis of Assisi famously prayed, “Who are you, my God, and who am I?” Greg Cellini found himself praying a similar prayer after almost three decades of working and climbing within the pharmaceutical industry. That's when everything changed. He began the process of entering religious life.

His journey is one that invites each of us to contemplate the source of our dreams and desires and consider who we are at the core of our identity. The timing of this conversation, just after the Feast Day of St. Francis and at the start of Franciscan Month, invites each of us to consider our own callings and dare to pray the prayer St. Francis prayed.

Brother Greg Cellini, OSF, is a Franciscan Brother of Brooklyn. His primary ministry is at St. Francis College where he has served as an adjunct professor as well as director of the Office of Mission, Ministry, and Interfaith dialogue. He is the host of "Thank God For Monday," a weekly radio talk show about the workplace. He is a graduate of St. Bonaventure University’s advanced certificate in Franciscan Studies. He also earned degrees at Rutgers Graduate School of Management and Seton Hall University Stillman School of Business. He is the author of Transform Yourself - Transform the World: A Franciscan View of Career.

Click here to view the show notes for this episode.

(00:00:01) Introduction

(00:01:59) Climbing in the Corporate World

(00:03:59) Spiritual Background

(00:05:43) When God Calls You Elsewhere

(00:10:18) Dreams and Desires: What is the Source?

(00:13:38) Holy Surrender

(00:17:26) Reflection No. 1: Dreams and Desires

(00:20:02) A Mysterious Encounter and the Call to Religious Life

(00:25:18) Why the Franciscans?

(00:27:36) Ordered Love, Dis-ordered Love, and Performance

(00:31:49) Reflection No. 2: Remembering Your Identity

(00:35:13) Entering Religious Life and Going Inward

(00:38:57) The Blessings of Failure and Endings

(00:44:13) What is Downward Mobility?

(00:48:10) Reflection No. 3: Downward Mobility

(00:49:56) Education and the Franciscan Charism

(00:55:06) The Challenges Young People Face

(01:00:26) What is Franciscan Month?

(01:08:20) Closing Reflections and Prayer

(01:09:54) Conclusion