This is the last episode of 2025, taking a look back at why the podcast looked so different from the previous 2 years. I also venture into why Jonathan only appeared in 3 episodes and what 2026 might look like.

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this conversation, Graeme and Joey sit down with Dr Greg Liston to discuss Lesslie Newbigin's 5 big ways churches should approach cultural and be distinct through creating plausibility structures.

Dr. Greg Liston is a Senior Lecturer at Laidlaw College specialising in ecclesiology and systematic theology. He was the Lead Pastor of Mt Albert Baptist Church in Auckland, New Zealand. He also holds two PhDs: one in theology and the other in physics.

00:00 Intro
01:56 Lesslie Newbigin vs relevance missiology
07:52 Newbigin's PT 1
09:42 Newbigin's PT 2
16:14 Newbigin's PT 3
23:54 Newbigin's PT 4
29:34 Newbigin's PT 5
31:53 Is Eastern Orthodoxy the Best Plausibility Structure?
39:34 Living in the Tension of Two Worlds
44:04 Deconstructing Secularism and Technique
49:04 Church is About "Being" Before "Doing"
59:09 The HOPE Conference

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

On this episode, Jonathan, Graeme, and Joey discuss what biblical wisdom is and how "the fear of the Lord" might not mean what we think. We disagree, agree, argue, meet in the middle, and much more.

00:00 Introduction
02:01 Answering listener's questions
10:07 Why "the fear of the Lord" and wisdom?
16:26 The OT and wisdom
26:31 How wisdom became incarnational
32:31 From fear to love in Christ
36:11 The tension of Holy-Love
40:11 A definition of wisdom
50:06 You can't live solely by principles

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this episode, Jonathan Hoskin rejoins Graeme and Joey as they look at the physical world and rediscover a re-enchantment or sacramental nature to the world through visiting Iain McGilChrist's, "The Matter With Things" (2021). They explore how the Western world became flat and secular, who Iain McGilchrist is and what he gets right and wrong about the world and God, how the world is deeply sacramental and what that means, and much more.

00:00 Introduction
02:15 Jonathan is BACK!
06:10 The world is a window, not a wall
10:40 How we became secular people
23:45 how secularism has impacted Christians
33:55 Iain McGilchrist "The Matter With Things"
39:15 Mistaking the map for the terrain (important)
42:30 McGilchrist re-enchants a scientific world
50:55 Jesus confirms a sacramental world
54:35 How we can change from a flat, mechanistic worldview
01:00:45 Theologians pray ... [insert literally anything] pray

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this conversation, Graeme and Joey sit down with Rev. Louise Wernich to talk about business strategy and leadership helping churches. Pastors have become increasingly suspicious of business practices distorting the purpose of the church, but Louise addresses how we can go too far in the other direction.

Rev. Louise Wernich is an ordained minister in the Methodist Church of South Africa and has recently completed in MBA in New Zealand. She works at Laidlaw College within the post-graduate theology programmes. She has considerable experience leading churches of all size, and she has recently come to appreciate the importance of business leadership for the church.

00:00 teaser / intro

02:12 the tension between church / business leadership

10:39 who is your church competing with?

19:47 PESTEL and SWOT strategic framworks

27:20 what to do when a ministry is dying

31:27 the purpose of the church

37:20 migrant churches navigating NZ culture

48:12 migrant churches should do this ...

56:12 why church strategy matters

58:52 AI us causing pause / disruption within people

01:01:02 Church staff aren't family

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this conversation, Joey sits down with Treaty of Waitangi expert and scholar, Dr. Sam Carpenter. They talk about the Treaty of Waitangi history and how early missionaries were pivotal in its construction, translation, and acceptance. They also discuss how the current discourse around the Treaty needs a biblical worldview to be interpreted correctly.

Sam teaches into Laidlaw’s Church History courses with a specialist focus on New Zealand religious and political history. He leads Te Rongopai ki Aotearoa Project at Laidlaw that is exploring the multidimensional relationships of Christianity and Māori society. Sam’s research focusses on the intersections of Christianity and Māori society, and on New Zealand political and religious history more generally.

CHECK OUT Sam's personal website for current scholarly-informed opinions on the Treaty of Waitangi and more https://nzhistorian.com/

00:00 Intro
01:38 Sam' work with the Waitangi Tribunal
06:43 What was the Maori spiritual landscape like before Christianity?
12:13 How did Christianity arrive in Aotearoa (New Zealand)?
16:32 How did Christianity grow in Aotearoa (New Zealand)?
19:18 Why did Maori overwhelmingly accept Christianity?
26:33 Maori became early evangelists and missionaries to other Maori
30:23 Why was the Treaty of Waitangi was written?
36:21 How was the Treaty of Waitangi written and translated?
39:43 What the Treaty actually says
43:08 Why did every chief sign the Treaty?
48:13 Why did Maori eventually reject Christianity?
54:58 Bible in one hand Treaty in the other
1:03:06 1934 Declaration of New Zealand Independence
1:07:33 Is the Treaty misinterpreted in 2025?

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this episode, Graeme and Joey interview Dr. Maja Whitaker about Pentecostalism—the good, great, and not so great. We look at what make Pentecostal churches tick, like their unique take on mission, their need to be culturally relevant, and their obsession with pragmatism and why they have a PR problem.

Dr. Maja Whitaker is the Academic Dean at Laidlaw College; she oversees all programme development and delivery and contributes to the development and outworking of College strategy, with a focus on integrated programmes and a strong partner ecosystem. Maja is a lecturer in the School of Theology, and has served as Practical Theology Lead and with the School of Theology Leadership team. She teaches into courses on spiritual formation, reflective practice, leadership, and pastoral ministry.

00:00 Intro
01:28 What is Pentecostalism/Charismatic?
08:40 Experiencing God
11:50 Always looking to where the Spirit's at work — sacramentalism
16:07 Why does Pentecostalism have a PR problem?
21:38 How Maja dealt with the tension moments
26:00 Pentecostal churches in NZ are different
32:33 Maja's shifting relationship with God
36:20 Maja's ideal Sunday morning
41:55 What Graeme would add to church
45:25 Why Pentecostal churches are growing
47:40 Joey's theory about the Pentecostal movement
51:38 Maja's no longer Pentecostal

The music is by Josiah David Swim. You can find him on Spotify.

Lunch on The Way is a podcast that deeply discusses Christianity, Church, Culture, and Jesus.
Available on ALL podcast platforms https://lunchontheway.buzzsprout.com/share

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

In this episode, Graeme and Joey sit down with Rev. Dr. Sarah Penwarden to discuss why our experience matters for theology and understanding God, why emotions matters, how to integrate experience and faith, how stories help us creating meaning, and why people receive counselling.

Sarah Penwarden (Pākehā) has a doctorate in counselling, is a practicing counsellor, supervisor, and an Anglican priest. She teaches in the School of Theology (Laidlaw College) on a part-time basis. Her academic interests connect to practical theology and counselling, and how the realities of ordinary life can be held in tandem with the hope of the Gospel. She teaches papers about research methods and mental health.

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.