For the 20th anniversary of Freakonomics, Debbie Millman of Design Matters interviews Stephen Dubner about his upbringing, his writing career, and why it's important to “swing your swing.” Plus: a sneak peek at a new project.

• SOURCES:
  • Debbie Millman, writer and host of Design Matters with Debbie Millman.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Stephen J. Dubner," by Design Matters with Debbie Millman (2025).
  • Turbulent Souls: A Catholic Son's Return To His Jewish Family, by Stephen Dubner (1999).
  • "Choosing My Religion," by Stephen Dubner (New York Times, 1996).

• EXTRAS:
  • "In Search of the Real Adam Smith," by Freakonomics Radio (2022).

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Arthur Brooks, an economist and former head of the American Enterprise Institute, believes that there is only one remedy for our political polarization: love. In this 2021 episode, we ask if Brooks is a fool for thinking this — and if perhaps you are his kind of fool?

• SOURCES:
  • Arthur Brooks, professor of public and nonprofit leadership at Harvard University.

• RESOURCES:
  • “Vital Statistics on Congress,” by Molly Reynolds and Naomi Maehr (Brookings Institute, 2024).
  • Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, by Anna Lembke (2021).
  • “Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being,” by Arthur Brooks (The Atlantic, 2020).
  • Love Your Enemies: How Decent People Can Save America from the Culture of Contempt, by Arthur Brooks (2019).
  • “This 75-Year Harvard Study Found the 1 Secret to Leading a Fulfilling Life,” by Melanie Curtin (Inc., 2017).
  • The Conservative Heart: How to Build a Fairer, Happier, and More Prosperous America, by Arthur Brooks (2015).
  • “Grin and Bear It: The Influence of Manipulated Facial Expression on the Stress Response,” by Tara Kraft and Sarah Pressman (Psychological Science, 2012).

• EXTRAS:
  • “Why Is U.S. Media So Negative?” by Freakonomics Radio (2021).

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Soccer leagues around the world use a promotion-and-relegation system to reward the best teams and punish the worst. We ask whether American sports fans would enjoy a similar system. (Part two of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
  • Stefan Szymanski, professor of sport management at the University of Michigan.
  • Victor Matheson, professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross.

• RESOURCES:
  • "'Root, root, root for the home team" did TV kill minor league baseball in the 1950s?" by Stefan Szymanski (University of Michigan, 2025).
  • "European and North American Sports Differences (?): A Quarter Century on," by Stefan Szymanski (Principles and Paradoxes of Sports Economics, 2024).
  • National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer, by Stefan Szymanski and Andrew Zimbalist (2006).

• EXTRAS:
  • "When Is a Superstar Just Another Employee? (Update)," by Freakonomics Radio (2025).
  • "The Longest Long Shot," by Freakonomics Radio (2016).

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The N.F.L. is a powerful cartel with imperial desires. College football is about to undergo a financial reckoning. So maybe they should team up? (Part one of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • DeMaurice Smith, former executive director of the National Football League Players Association.
  • Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
  • Jeffrey Kessler, partner at the law firm of Winston & Strawn.
  • Oliver Luck, sports executive and consultant.
  • Victor Matheson, professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross.

• RESOURCES:
  • Turf Wars: The Fight for the Soul of America's Game, by DeMaurice Smith (2025).
  • "Is there a Case for Subsidizing Sports Stadiums?" by Victor Matheson (Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, 2018).

• EXTRAS:
  • "America’s Hidden Duopoly," by Freakonomics Radio (2018).
  • "Should the U.S. Merge With Mexico?" by Freakonomics Radio (2014).

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In this episode we first published in 2021, the political scientist Yuen Yuen Ang argues that different forms of government create different styles of corruption — and that the U.S. and China have more in common than we’d like to admit.

• SOURCES:
  • Yuen Yuen Ang, professor of political science at Johns Hopkins University.

• RESOURCES:
  • "China’s Anti-Graft Show Is Educational, With Unintended Lessons," by Li Yuan (The New York Times, 2022).
  • China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption, by Yuen Yuen Ang (2020).
  • "A Fair Assessment of China’s IP Protection," by Shang-Jin Wei and Xinding Yu (Project Syndicate, 2019).
  • The Bankers' New Clothes: What's Wrong with Banking and What to Do about It, by Anat Admati (2013).
  • "A Fistful of Dollars: Lobbying and the Financial Crisis," by Deniz Igan, Prachi Mishra, and Thierry Tressel (2011).

• EXTRAS:
  • "China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers." by Freakonomics Radio (2025).
  • American Culture series by Freakonomics Radio (2021).

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In his new book “Breakneck,” Dan Wang argues that the U.S. has a lot to learn from China. He also says that “no two peoples are more alike.” We have questions.

• SOURCES:
  • Dan Wang, research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, author of Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future.

• RESOURCES:
  • Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, by Dan Wang (2025).
  • The Anaconda in the Chandelier: Writings on China, by Perry Link (2025).
  • "Is the U.S. Ready for the Next War?" by Dexter Filkins (The New Yorker, 2025).
  • "How smartphones made Shenzhen China’s innovation capital," by Dan Wang (2016).
  • How China Escaped the Poverty Trap, by Yuen Yuen Ang (2016).
  • The Art of Not Being Governed, by Jame Scott (2009).

• EXTRAS:
  • "The Engineering State and the Lawyerly Society: Dan Wang on his new book 'Breakneck,'" by the Sinica Podcast (2025).
  • "Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China?" by Freakonomics Radio (2021).

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A lot of jobs in the modern economy don’t pay a living wage, and some of those jobs may be wiped out by new technologies. So what’s to be done? We revisit an episode from 2016 for a potential solution.

• SOURCES:
  • Erik Brynjolfsson, professor of economics at Stanford University.
  • Evelyn Forget, professor of economics and community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
  • Sam Altman, C.E.O. of OpenAI.
  • Robert Gordon, professor emeritus of economics at Northwestern University.
  • Greger Larson, professor of archeology at the University of Oxford.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Here's what a Sam Altman-backed basic income experiment found," by Megan Cerullo (CBS News, 2024).
  • Utopia for Realists, by Rutger Bregman. The Correspondent (2016).
  • The Second Machine Age, by Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee (2014).
  • "The Town With No Poverty: Using Health Administration Data To Revisit Outcomes of a Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income Field Experiment," by Evelyn Forget (Canadian Public Policy, 2011).
  • "The Negative Income Tax and the Evolution of U.S. Welfare Policy," by Robert Moffitt (Journal of Economic Perspectives, 2003).
  • Capitalism and Freedom, by Milton Freidman (2002).
  • "Lesson from the Income Maintenance Experiments," (Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and The Brookings Institution, 1986).
  • Law, Legislation and Liberty, Volume 3: The Political Order of A Free People, by Frederick Hayek (1981).
  • "Daniel Moynihan and President-elect Nixon: How charity didn't begin at home," by Peter Passell and Leonard Ross (New York Times, 1973).
  • "Income Maintenance Programs," (Hearings Before The Subcommittee On Fiscal Policy Of The Joint Economic Committee Congress Of The United States, 1968).

• EXTRAS:
  • "President Nixon Unveils the Family Assistance Program," (1969).
  • "Milton Friedman interview with William F Buckley Jr.," (1968).
  • "Martin Luther King Jr. advocates for Guaranteed Income at Stanford," (1967).

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What does it take to “play 3D chess at 250 miles an hour”? And how far will $12.5 billion of “Big, Beautiful” funding go toward modernizing the F.A.A.? (Part two of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • David Strayer, professor of cognition and neural science at the University of Utah.
  • Dorothy Robyn, senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
  • Ed Bastian, C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
  • Ed Bolen, president and C.E.O. of the National Business Aviation Association.
  • John Strong, professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.
  • Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.
  • Olivia Grace, former product manager at Slack.
  • Polly Trottenberg, former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

• RESOURCES:
  • “An Air Traffic Controller Speaks Out About Newark Airport,” by The Journal (2025).
  • "Why Did Air Traffic Control Reform Efforts Fail (Again)?" by Jeff Davis (Eno Center for Transportation, 2023).
  • "Supertaskers: Profiles in extraordinary multitasking ability," by Jason Watson and David Strayer (Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, 2021).
  • Managing the Skies: Public Policy, Organization, and Financing of Air Traffic Management, by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016).

• EXTRAS:
  • "Multitasking Doesn't Work. So Why Do We Keep Trying?" by Freakonomics Radio (2024).

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