Ep. 194 (Part 2 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Grief is a way we continue to love someone… a natural response to the experience of love.”

• What qualities do people need to be with the dying? (00:27)
• Boundless compassion needs everyday compassion (02:09)
• Don’t wait to tell people that you love them (03:55)
• Grief is a way we continue to love someone, a natural response to the experience of love (06:06)
• There are subtler experiences after surrender: tracking consciousness as the brain stops (06:38)
• Gratefulness and a deep sense of belonging to something larger (09:52)
• Cultivating don’t know mind; meeting dying with don’t know mind (12:47)
• Terminal lucidity (17:49)
• Practices we can do now: how do we meet endings? (19:54)
• Impermanence is not later; it’s in this very moment (22:35)
• Cultural changes Frank would like to see (26:15)
• Proximate karma (30:00)
• Better drugs than sedation: psychedelics could help us meet the profundity of the experience (30:37)
• Bathing the body after death: a wonderful tradition that can fundamentally shift our relation with death (33:45)

• Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
• Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully
• Metta Institute, founded by Frank Ostaseski, to provide innovative programs and trainings that foster mindful & compassionate end-of-life care
• Frank Ostaseski, founding director of the San Francisco Zen Hospice...

Ep. 193 (Part 1 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Dying is not predominantly a medical event, and we ought to stop treating it as if it were.”

• Introducing Frank Ostaseski, co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project & author of The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully (00:35)
• What drew Frank into working with the dying? (01:51)
• John’s brush with death and how it affects him now (03:05)
• Does a contemplative practice help in a near-death experience? (08:10)
• Dying brings about certain conditions that help us transcend our small self (11:39)
• Facing death is an unprecedented opportunity for transformation—why wait until we are dying? (12:38)
• Acceptance is only the beginning, letting go has an important role, but there is a deeper dimension: surrender (14:23)
• Who are we after we are stripped of our identities? (20:43)
• Another way of understanding surrender: a deep relaxation rather than a giving up (22:19)
• We need to not project our standard of what dying should look like on people who are dying (30:30)
• Roger’s comments about how touched he was by Frank’s book, The Five Invitations (36:39)
• How painfully inadequate medical training is for helping the dying (38:28)
• How vulnerable doctors became during Covid, when they had to take on the role of family members (40:20)
• Time-of-death rituals are growing in medical centers around the world (42:17)
• Playing Brahms’ Lullaby throughout the hospital to mark a birth (46:18)

• Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
• Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death...

Ep. 192 (Part 2 of 2) | Professor Mark Fischler, constitutional law expert and co-host of the Integral Justice Warrior podcast, helps us make sense of what’s happening to our democracy, providing context—historical, legal, ethical—for the plethora of disturbing and destructive acts occurring on a daily basis in our political arena. The rule of law is under direct attack at this time, he explains, and an assault on democracy is essentially an assault on our most fundamental values—the principles this country was founded on: inclusivity, equality, and dignity for all.

Mark clarifies President Trump’s political actions in the context of developmental stages, unpacks Project 2025, and discusses the assault on higher education and critical thinking and what it portends. The trajectory of where we are headed, Mark points out, is regressing into values we have already transcended. We need our democratic foundation to move to deeper, post-democratic levels that are reflective of greater levels of interconnection and inclusivity—not the opposite, he says. What will it take to change the regressive trajectory? Courage! And involvement. Thank you, Mark, for bringing a rare depth and much-needed clarity to the subject of the evolving democratic crisis occurring in our nation today and its implications for our future. Recorded June 12, 2025.

“The assault on democracy we are experiencing is also an assault on a spiritual understanding of the deeper nature of our existence.”

• The assault on higher education and critical thinking, continued (01:07)
• The idea of inherent capabilities of race is a slippery slope (02:33)
• Authoritarianism, the “authoritarian slide,” and the current administration (11:16)
• Do you cave if your livelihood is threatened or do you stand up for the values of your country? (14:12)
• The assault on democracy is an assault on our foundational spiritual values (19:26)
• The leftist postmodern approach to transgender issues & immigration created fodder for the movement towards authoritarianism (23:12)
• The importance of creating an educated citizenry (28:03)
• MLK’s four basic steps for nonviolent action (32:09)
• Take direct action only after you’ve entered into a purified state such as Jesus had on the cross (34:05)
• Prevent violence in protests, disable provocateurs (36:16)

• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos (Integral Life website)
• Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project on the Deep Transformation podcast, From Race to Culture to Cosmos: Using the Dance of Our Differences to Wise Up, Harmonize, and Actualize
• Martin Luther King Jr.’s last speech, “I’ve Been to the Mountaintop” (YouTube...

Ep. 191 (Part 1 of 2) | Professor Mark Fischler, constitutional law expert and co-host of the Integral Justice Warrior podcast, helps us make sense of what’s happening to our democracy, providing context—historical, legal, ethical—for the plethora of disturbing and destructive acts occurring on a daily basis in our political arena. The rule of law is under direct attack at this time, he explains, and an assault on democracy is essentially an assault on our most fundamental values—the principles this country was founded on: inclusivity, equality, and dignity for all.

Mark clarifies President Trump’s political actions in the context of developmental stages, unpacks Project 2025, and discusses the assault on higher education and critical thinking and what it portends. The trajectory of where we are headed, Mark points out, is regressing into values we have already transcended. We need our democratic foundation to move to deeper, post-democratic levels that are reflective of greater levels of interconnection and inclusivity—not the opposite, he says. What will it take to change the regressive trajectory? Courage! And involvement. Thank you, Mark, for bringing a rare depth and much-needed clarity to the subject of the evolving democratic crisis occurring in our nation today and its implications for our future. Recorded June 12, 2025.

“The rule of law is a hard-earned process… and it’s under direct attack at this time in our country.”

• Introducing constitutional law expert, professor of Ethics, Constitutional Law, and Criminal Procedure, and co-host of the Integral Justice Warrior podcast, Mark Fischler (00:39)
• Trump, tribalism, and the zero-sum game: there are winners & losers; the losers deserve to lose (01:31)
• The rule of law is under direct attack in the U.S. at this time (11:34)
• Dehumanization and Trump’s pre-conventional ethic of retribution (14:41)
• Our nation is built on ethics of higher purpose; our founding fathers specifically banned gifts to the President in the Constitution (17:30)
• Where is Congress in all of this? (21:13)
• Treason and bribery are the two legal grounds for impeachment (21:55)
• What is Project 2025, and the over-rulings of judicial rulings by the executive (25:33)
• The Heritage Foundation, responsible for developing the central ideas of Project 2025 (29:41)
• Project 2025’s pre-conventional position on abortion and family (32:49)
• Why does democracy matter? (36:22)
• What we are experiencing is a direct attack on the principles of inclusivity (37:53)
• How does slashing Medicare and Medicaid square with Christian values? (40:21)
• The trajectory of where we are headed: regressing into values we have already transcended (43:14)
• The left has made it easy for the far right (43:48)
• The assault on higher education and critical thinking (44:17)

• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos (Integral Life website)
• J. Michael Luttig,

Ep. 190 (Part 2 of 2) | The eleventh Wisdom Series dialogue with A. H. Almaas brings us to the second turning of his teaching, into the boundless dimension of divine love. Hameed explores this nondual dimension in detail: its qualities, what it’s like to experience firsthand, and what the effects of such an experience are likely to be. This boundless dimension of loving consciousness is the first of the five boundless dimensions, though love continues to develop throughout them all. Hameed gives a beautiful account of his initial experience with this dimension, when divine love and light permeated all of reality. “Why don’t more people experience this if love is always there? asks co-host John Dupuy, and Hameed explains that it’s always there in potential form though not always manifest; the experience is there for when we are ripe for it.

Having awakened to this dimension, one can’t help but want everyone to feel this way, Hameed says, and this is the main reason spiritual teachers teach. Hameed describes the obstacles that prevent us from experiencing the reality of divine love, how it challenges our perceived separateness, and tells us that after experiencing this unity, returning to separateness is not a choice. It turns out that experiencing boundless love is not a panacea for enlightenment, but creates an upwelling of obstacles and a state where our boundedness feels even more restrictive than before. Hameed also relates how hatred and greed can exist in this reality of pure goodness, and tells us that it is here, in the ocean of love and light, that they are transformed. A wonderfully numinous, illuminating conversation. Recorded May 1, 2025.

“The love is what makes us human—you can’t be really human without heart.”

• Two ways of functioning: from the perspective of the soul, or from the perspective of the ocean of love (00:35)
• A third way of functioning is when the ocean manifests the functioning itself (03:58)
• The ocean of love dissolves all fears (06:06)
• Love takes forms; this dimension is an example of the formless taking form (07:06)
• The sense of pure “goodness” in this dimension is unmistakable—you can’t help but want everyone to feel this (10:34)
• Hatred is not a quality of being; it’s a distortion of a quality of being (14:37)
• Hameed’s experience of the beast, an inherent part of the ego (17:40)
• Experiencing Jabba the Hut, who represents greed; greed gets healed in this dimension (21:23)
• Your curiosity—wanting to know and being willing to experience—is the only way to transform greed or hatred; you can’t push them away (29:02)
• Five steps towards true nature (31:41)
• The heart (love) keeps developing through all the dimensions (34:20)
• You can’t be really human without heart (35:32)
• How do we continue to develop and manifest this connection with love? (36:20)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of The Ridhwan School, home of

Ep. 189 (Part 1 of 2) | The eleventh Wisdom Series dialogue with A. H. Almaas brings us to the second turning of his teaching, into the boundless dimension of divine love. Hameed explores this nondual dimension in detail: its qualities, what it’s like to experience firsthand, and what the effects of such an experience are likely to be. This boundless dimension of loving consciousness is the first of the five boundless dimensions, though love continues to develop throughout them all. Hameed gives a beautiful account of his initial experience with this dimension, when divine love and light permeated all of reality. “Why don’t more people experience this if love is always there? asks co-host John Dupuy, and Hameed explains that it’s always there in potential form though not always manifest; the experience is there for when we are ripe for it.

Having awakened to this dimension, one can’t help but want everyone to feel this way, Hameed says, and this is the main reason spiritual teachers teach. Hameed describes the obstacles that prevent us from experiencing the reality of divine love, how it challenges our perceived separateness, and tells us that after experiencing this unity, returning to separateness is not a choice. It turns out that experiencing boundless love is not a panacea for enlightenment, but creates an upwelling of obstacles and a state where our boundedness feels even more restrictive than before. Hameed also relates how hatred and greed can exist in this reality of pure goodness, and tells us that it is here, in the ocean of love and light, that they are transformed. A wonderfully numinous, illuminating conversation. Recorded May 1, 2025.

“Full nonduality: not just nonduality between subject and object…but where nothing is separate from anything else—one indivisible medium of loving consciousness.”

• Introducing the 11th dialogue in the A. H. Almaas Wisdom Series, focusing on the first of the five boundless dimensions: the ocean of love and light (00:35)
• Transitioning to the second turning of the teaching: the dimension of divine love (01:54)
• Hameed’s first experience of boundless love (04:46)
• This is what Rumi writes about—it’s not a unique experience but a potential for everyone (10:30)
• Full nonduality: not just between subject and object, but where nothing is separate from anything else (12:00)
• Why don’t more people experience this if love is always there? (14:08)
• All five dimensions (and maybe more) are implicit in nondual consciousness (19:17)
• Obstacles in the way of experiencing divine love (21:03)
• We cannot make this experience of presence happen—it is an emergence, a revelation (22:33)
• The movement back to separateness happens because it has been imprinted in the soul (24:48)
• The experience of divine love creates an upwelling of obstacles (26:27)
• Inquiry is the way to surrender your attachment to yourself as an individual (29:11)
• Our functioning can continue to happen after our boundaries have dissolved (32:35)
• Two main ego identifications: boundedness & our sense of identity (36:02)
• This dimension teaches how we can function as an individual expression of boundless love while not being separate from it (37:59)

• A. H. Almaas (Hameed Ali), founder of

Ep. 188 (Part 2 of 2) | Dr. Sally Adnams Jones has pioneered the field of art therapy as an agent of transformation and healing, choosing to work particularly with people living with no economic infrastructure: refugees, and victims of natural disasters, genocide, war, pandemics, and more. What Sally has found is that creating art within a community works miracles for the dispossessed and traumatized, in that it provides an embodied, practical method of engendering feelings of pride, a sense of belonging, finding one’s voice, and perceiving the future as something one can affect and shape. In fact, this work is applicable to everyone everywhere—it is in accessing our creativity that we come to ask, “How do we start to build the world we need?” An Integral Taoist, Sally shares her perspective on the yin and yang of creativity, explaining that ultimately, creativity is emergence working through the human body.

At the heart of Integral Taoism is an understanding that the nature of emergence itself is to become aware of your polarity and integrate it. The more you do that, the more creative you become. The discussion transitions from the dance of polarity in creativity to how the polarities of yin and yang are playing out in politics today. Sally is a Canadian therapist and exceptionally well informed about politics—here we gain a perspective on current U.S. – Canadian relations and world politics that is revelatory. Recorded May 29, 2025.

“Every single Canadian is deeply traumatized right now.”

• How the movement between parts and whole, yin and yang, plays out in politics (01:21)
• The threat to Canada’s sovereignty, what Canada is doing in response, and Canada’s unifying, integral leader (03:12)
• How did it feel when Trump started talking about annexing Canada? (06:44)
• Under the Trump regime, the U.S. has become an arms dealer (10:21)
• How Sally’s growing up in South Africa under constant threat of civil war informs her views of fascism and the reversal of the American ideal of democracy (13:12)
• Advice for political resisters: establish a line that cannot be crossed (18:54)
• Coordinated resistance to the U.S. from external sources (24:14)
• Global politics, macroeconomics, and the rise of authoritarianism (27:36)
• Misinformation and the radicalization of young white men through the fourth estate (30:22)
• New challenges we face with fascism, and why American tech bros think Western Civilization is under threat (34:54)
• The future: who has control of the skies? (39:49)
• What is the most strategic thing one can do? (41:16)
• How do you stay grounded and balanced? Learning self-regulation, connecting with nature (43:56)

• Sally Adnams Jones, Art-Making with Refugees and Survivors: Creative and Transformative Responses to Trauma After Natural Disasters, War and Other Crises
• Sally’s website: sallyadnamsjones.com
• Sally’s podcast: Radical Emergence

Ep. 187 (Part 1 of 2) | Dr. Sally Adnams Jones has pioneered the field of art therapy as an agent of transformation and healing, choosing to work particularly with people living with no economic infrastructure: refugees, and victims of natural disasters, genocide, war, pandemics, and more. What Sally has found is that creating art within a community works miracles for the dispossessed and traumatized, in that it provides an embodied, practical method of engendering feelings of pride, a sense of belonging, finding one’s voice, and perceiving the future as something one can affect and shape. In fact, this work is applicable to everyone everywhere—it is in accessing our creativity that we come to ask, “How do we start to build the world we need?” An Integral Taoist, Sally shares her perspective on the yin and yang of creativity, explaining that ultimately, creativity is emergence working through the human body.

At the heart of Integral Taoism is an understanding that the nature of emergence itself is to become aware of your polarity and integrate it. The more you do that, the more creative you become. The discussion transitions from the dance of polarity in creativity to how the polarities of yin and yang are playing out in politics today. Sally is a Canadian therapist and exceptionally well informed about politics—here we gain a perspective on current U.S. – Canadian relations and world politics that is revelatory. Recorded May 29, 2025.

“The basis of self-esteem is agency—and how you find agency is finding your hands, your heart, and your voice.”

• Introducing Dr. Sally Adnams Jones, pioneer of transformation through creativity, psycho-spiritual educator, artist, author (00:56)
• How did Sally come to this work? Every kind of trauma exists in South Africa (01:58)
• Sally’s book, Art-Making with Refugees and Survivors, is about how to access our creativity when we’ve been dispossessed and dislocated, with no agency left (05:11)
• Using your hands to access pre-verbal trauma: it starts with the thumb/hand/brain connection (07:07)
• Building self-esteem, pride, community, and hope through creating art (09:02)
• How does Sally build trust going into indigenous communities? (12:20)
• What happened to our creativity? In the modern era, we started discounting the right hemisphere (18:05)
• De-gendering creativity (20:43)
• Integral Taoism: understanding that the nature of emergence is to become aware of your polarity and integrate it (22:44)
• At the lower chakras, masculine and feminine come together as procreative; at the higher levels as creative (25:58)
• The ultimate understanding is about the mystery, an embodied channel to the divine (28:53)
• Creativity: emergence working through the human body (29:55)
• How do we potentiate through our body? Through understanding polarity principles (32:08)
• Sally’s initiation to Integral Taoism in a park in Beijing, China (36:49)
• As an integrally informed Canadian therapist, what does Sally think about current U.S./Canada politics? (41:51)
• Polarization, and how polarities and yin/yang play out in politics (44:12)

• Sally Adnams Jones, Art-Making with Refugees and Survivors: Creative and Transformative Responses to Trauma After...