Ep. 194 (Part 2 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Grief is a way we continue to love someone… a natural response to the experience of love.”

• What qualities do people need to be with the dying? (00:27)
• Boundless compassion needs everyday compassion (02:09)
• Don’t wait to tell people that you love them (03:55)
• Grief is a way we continue to love someone, a natural response to the experience of love (06:06)
• There are subtler experiences after surrender: tracking consciousness as the brain stops (06:38)
• Gratefulness and a deep sense of belonging to something larger (09:52)
• Cultivating don’t know mind; meeting dying with don’t know mind (12:47)
• Terminal lucidity (17:49)
• Practices we can do now: how do we meet endings? (19:54)
• Impermanence is not later; it’s in this very moment (22:35)
• Cultural changes Frank would like to see (26:15)
• Proximate karma (30:00)
• Better drugs than sedation: psychedelics could help us meet the profundity of the experience (30:37)
• Bathing the body after death: a wonderful tradition that can fundamentally shift our relation with death (33:45)

• Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
• Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully
• Metta Institute, founded by Frank Ostaseski, to provide innovative programs and trainings that foster mindful & compassionate end-of-life care
• Frank Ostaseski, founding director of the San Francisco Zen Hospice...

Ep. 193 (Part 1 of 2) | Frank Ostaseski, Zen hospice pioneer, founder of the Metta Institute, and author of The Five Invitations, speaks with us about the profound wisdom and potential for transformation that is unleashed in the process of dying. “Suppose we imagine death as an unprecedented opportunity for transformation, he says, adding, “so why wait until we are dying?” In attending over a thousand people in hospice, Frank has often seen them experience a real sense of discovery in the dying process; there is a time of acceptance, a time of letting go, and then a deeper state of surrendering to something larger. The walls that prop up the self start tumbling down, Frank explains, and a larger connection emerges that is always there.

Frank would like to see the process of dying brought out of the closet—shared about, learned from, and not reduced to a medical event. It’s important to meet death with don’t-know mind and trust the dying process to teach each of us what we need to know, he explains. And some of what we can do right now to open ourselves to the wisdom of death is pay attention to how we end things, and to how we love. This far reaching discussion delves gently into the divine mystery of death and dying, touching on radical acceptance, transcending self, don’t-know mind, everyday compassion and boundless compassion, grief as an expression of love, and creating rituals to mark this passage and all passages. We are left feeling unexpectedly comforted and liberated at the same time. Recorded December 5, 2024.

“Dying is not predominantly a medical event, and we ought to stop treating it as if it were.”

• Introducing Frank Ostaseski, co-founder of the Zen Hospice Project & author of The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death Can Teach Us About Living Fully (00:35)
• What drew Frank into working with the dying? (01:51)
• John’s brush with death and how it affects him now (03:05)
• Does a contemplative practice help in a near-death experience? (08:10)
• Dying brings about certain conditions that help us transcend our small self (11:39)
• Facing death is an unprecedented opportunity for transformation—why wait until we are dying? (12:38)
• Acceptance is only the beginning, letting go has an important role, but there is a deeper dimension: surrender (14:23)
• Who are we after we are stripped of our identities? (20:43)
• Another way of understanding surrender: a deep relaxation rather than a giving up (22:19)
• We need to not project our standard of what dying should look like on people who are dying (30:30)
• Roger’s comments about how touched he was by Frank’s book, The Five Invitations (36:39)
• How painfully inadequate medical training is for helping the dying (38:28)
• How vulnerable doctors became during Covid, when they had to take on the role of family members (40:20)
• Time-of-death rituals are growing in medical centers around the world (42:17)
• Playing Brahms’ Lullaby throughout the hospital to mark a birth (46:18)

• Frank Ostaseski’s website: https://frankostaseski.com/
• Frank Ostaseski, The Five Invitations: Discovering What Death...

Ep. 192 (Part 2 of 2) | Professor Mark Fischler, constitutional law expert and co-host of the Integral Justice Warrior podcast, helps us make sense of what’s happening to our democracy, providing context—historical, legal, ethical—for the plethora of disturbing and destructive acts occurring on a daily basis in our political arena. The rule of law is under direct attack at this time, he explains, and an assault on democracy is essentially an assault on our most fundamental values—the principles this country was founded on: inclusivity, equality, and dignity for all.

Mark clarifies President Trump’s political actions in the context of developmental stages, unpacks Project 2025, and discusses the assault on higher education and critical thinking and what it portends. The trajectory of where we are headed, Mark points out, is regressing into values we have already transcended. We need our democratic foundation to move to deeper, post-democratic levels that are reflective of greater levels of interconnection and inclusivity—not the opposite, he says. What will it take to change the regressive trajectory? Courage! And involvement. Thank you, Mark, for bringing a rare depth and much-needed clarity to the subject of the evolving democratic crisis occurring in our nation today and its implications for our future. Recorded June 12, 2025.

“The assault on democracy we are experiencing is also an assault on a spiritual understanding of the deeper nature of our existence.”

• The assault on higher education and critical thinking, continued (01:07)
• The idea of inherent capabilities of race is a slippery slope (02:33)
• Authoritarianism, the “authoritarian slide,” and the current administration (11:16)
• Do you cave if your livelihood is threatened or do you stand up for the values of your country? (14:12)
• The assault on democracy is an assault on our foundational spiritual values (19:26)
• The leftist postmodern approach to transgender issues & immigration created fodder for the movement towards authoritarianism (23:12)
• The importance of creating an educated citizenry (28:03)
• MLK’s four basic steps for nonviolent action (32:09)
• Take direct action only after you’ve entered into a purified state such as Jesus had on the cross (34:05)
• Prevent violence in protests, disable provocateurs (36:16)

• The Integral Justice Warrior series, co-hosted by Mark Fischler and Corey deVos (Integral Life website)
• Greg Thomas, CEO of the Jazz Leadership Project on the Deep Transformation podcast, From Race to Culture to Cosmos: Using the Dance of Our Differences to Wise Up, Harmonize, and Actualize
• Martin Luther King Jr.’s last speech, “I’ve Been to the Mountaintop” (YouTube...