Today on Ascend the Greek Books Podcast, we wrap up our exploration of the Greek plays with a lively roundtable discussion. Our panel of friends delves into the key themes of the tragic plays, including divinity, eros, fate, justice, the cosmos, virtue, and suffering.

We explore plays such as the Oresteia, Prometheus Bound, the Theban plays, and the Bacchae, with insights from Homer, Hesiod, and Aristophanes. Don't miss this engaging conversation as we prepare to embark on our next journey with Plato.

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Visit our Patreon page for written guides and a community chat on Plato!

Summary

In this episode of the Great Books Podcast, the hosts and guests engage in a round table discussion about key themes in Greek plays, including divinity, Eros, fate, and free will. They share their favorite plays and insights gained from their readings, exploring how these themes evolve from Homer to later playwrights. The conversation highlights the complexity of Eros as both a binding force and a source of mania, as well as the characters' limited agency in the face of divine intervention.

The discussion culminates in a reflection on the implications of these themes for understanding Greek literature and philosophy. The conversation explores the themes of fatalism versus determinism, agency in Greek tragedy, the role of the gods, the evolution of justice, the nature of the cosmos, virtue, and the purpose of suffering. The speakers discuss how these themes are interwoven in the works of Homer and Aeschylus, highlighting the complexity of human actions, moral order, and the divine influence in Greek thought.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Personal Updates

06:38 Favorite Plays and Surprising Discoveries

12:25 The Maturation of Thought on Divinity

19:40 The Splintering and Obsessive Qualities of the Gods

23:57 The Tension Between the Divine and Natural Phenomena

25:47 Exploring the Concept of Divinity

43:00 The Dual Nature of Eros

55:54 Debating Fate and Free Will

59:39 Plato's Symposium: Eros as Ascent

01:01:30 The Interplay of Fate and Human Agency

01:14:53 Justice and Retribution in Homer's Epics

01:32:13 The Maturation of Justice in Aeschylus' Plays

01:39:14 The Challenge of Justice in the Story of Oedipus

01:44:40 The Redemptive Power of Suffering

01:50:55 The Influence of the Cosmos on Virtue and Piety

01:59:58 The Crucifixion: Suffering and Redemption

02:09:28 Sharing the Wisdom: Importance of Discussion

02:17:07 Insights into Justice, the Cosmos, Virtue, and Suffering

Keywords: Greek plays, divinity, Eros, fate, free will, themes, literature, philosophy, podcast, discussion, fatalism, determinism, agency, Greek tragedy, justice, cosmos, virtue, suffering, Homer, Aeschylus

Hashtags: #GreekPlays #Tragedy #Philosophy #GreatBooks

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are joined by Tsh Oxenreider to discuss The Frogs by Aristophanes. The play tells the comedic story of Dionysus deciding all the new tragic poets are terrible, so he travels to Hades to bring back Euripides to help save Athen’s from her moral decay. Once in Hades, Dionysus has several adventures, which includes hosting a poetry contest between Aeschylus and Euripides to see who is the best tragedian.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!

Visit our Patreon page for our library of written guides to the great books!

For those who do not know Tsh Oxenreider, she is wonderful. She’s an author, blogger, and podcaster. I was on her podcast a while back to discuss acedia and love of eros. Great conversation. And today, we have a high-level, friendly chat about this The Frongs and our love of the great books in general.

So join us today for a enjoyable conversation on Aristophanes’ the Frogs.

ALSO: We start PLATO on 7.22.25! Check out our website for our reading schedule. Join us!

00:00 Introduction

01:09 Tish Oxenreider's Background and Love for the Great Books

07:07 Introduction to Aristophanes and 'The Frogs'

09:17 Appreciating Aristophanes' Comedy

18:14 The Role of Comedy in Teaching Lessons

21:59 The Humor and Juxtaposition in 'The Frogs'

27:18 Comparing Aristophanes and Euripides

30:26 The Title 'The Frogs' and its Significance

32:51 The Impact of Translation on the Reading Experience

34:29 The Power of Lightness

34:55 The Relief of Small Pleasures

35:54 Remembering the Power of Truth and Beauty

37:43 The Transformative Power of Great Works

39:00 Dionysus as the Go-Between

40:18 Poets as Teachers

In this episode, Dcn. Harrison Garlick, Chancellor and General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa, welcomes Dr. Zena Hitz, a tutor at St. John’s College and founder of the Catherine Project, to discuss Aristophanes’ comedic masterpiece, The Clouds.

The episode dives into the play’s biting humor, its critique of Athenian society, and its timeless questions about education, piety, and moral decay. From the Thinkery’s absurd teachings to the mysterious Clouds, Dcn. Garlick and Zena unpack the play’s relevance to modern audiences, exploring themes of social ambition, familial breakdown, and the consequences of abandoning traditional values.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Check out our Patreon page for our library of written guides!

Key Discussion Points

• Aristophanes and The Clouds: Born around 446 BC, Aristophanes, the father of comedy, wrote The Clouds in 423 BC, nearly a decade into the Peloponnesian War. The play, a revised version not performed but circulated for reading, critiques Athenian decadence and intellectual trends through the story of Strepsiades, a debt-ridden father, and his son Phidippides. “Aristophanes in general is interested in portraying through this kind of ridiculous, sometimes slapstick, sometimes obscene comedy, certain truths” – Dr. Zena Hitz (16:47).
• The Thinkery and Education: The Thinkery, led by Socrates, teaches deceptive rhetoric and speculative inquiries, parodying new intellectual movements. It raises questions about education’s societal role. “The question about what an education is for and whether it helps the community or hurts it is a very basic fundamental question” – Dr. Zena Hitz (19:53).
• Piety and Political Stability: The play links reverence for traditional gods to social cohesion, showing how the Thinkery’s impiety destabilizes family and polis. “Belief in the gods is standing in for… sticking to the moral code that’s keeping the whole society together” – Dr. Zena Hitz (31:08).
• Socrates’ Portrayal: Socrates is depicted as a buffoonish sophist, but his role is ambiguous—possibly a stand-in for broader trends rather than the historical figure. “Strepsiades is the target… Socrates in a way is just being used to show something up about Strepsiades” – Dr. Zena Hitz (44:01).
• The Clouds’ Role: The personified Clouds, worshipped in the Thinkery, symbolize deceptive speech and align with comic poets, adding complexity. “Clouds cover things up. So there’s some kind of image for deceptive speech” – Dr. Zena Hitz (49:20).
• Socio-Economic Context: Set in a wealthy but decadent Athens, the play critiques social ambition and debt, mirroring modern struggles. “It’s in a way a very American story” – Dr. Zena Hitz (24:00).
• Moral Precedent and Human Nature: Strepsiades’ attempt to bend moral standards for gain backfires, reflecting universal human flaws. “You never want the full consequences of that one piece of wrongdoing… It never works out that way” – Dr. Zena Hitz (33:47).
• Translation Challenges: The episode highlights the importance of choosing a translation that preserves Aristophanes’ puns and humor, with recommendations for Arrowsmith and Sommerstein. “The translation on the Aristophanes actually matters a lot” – Dcn. Harrison Garlick (54:58).

About Our Guest

Dr. Zena Hitz is a tutor at St. John’s College and the founder and president of the Catherine Project, a nonprofit offering free, open-access reading groups and tutorials on great...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we plunge into the second part of Euripides’ The Bacchae—a harrowing yet gripping Greek tragedy that leads us deeper into the mystery of Dionysian eros.

We’ll observe the tragic descent of King Pentheus, the Bacchae as a parasite upon society, and the haunting themes of eros, justice, and the question of piety under an evil god.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading SCHEDULE.

Check out our Patreon page for our 25 Q&A GUIDE to the Bacchae.

From the guide:

Why should you read The Bacchae?

The Bacchae challenges readers to explore religion, erotics, piety, cosmic order, and human nature in a controversial and unsettling landscape. Euripides’ intent is not clear; thus, the reader is left to interpret a drama that seems to test longstanding Greek concepts, like piety and the gods.

Dr. Grabowski acknowledges the play as an integral part of the “great conversation” in the Western canon, and Dcn. Garlick agrees by highlighting the play as an important antecedent to Plato’s Euthyphro and Symposium. Though the work includes disturbing imagery, it is within those images that Euripides is wrestling with erotics, piety, and the cosmos. Somewhat shockingly, the play presents several parallels to Jesus Christ and invites the reader into challenging comparisons. Overall, The Bacchae stands as an important—though controversial—work in exploring the nature of man and his relation to the divine.

How is Agave’s death indicative of the destructive eros of Dionysus?

The disordered eros of the Dionysian cult manifests as an anti-logos mania that is corrosive to the family and the natural political order. It brings societal instability. Dcn. Garlick explains that this Dionysian eros, unlike Plato’s ordered ascent through the ladder of love in the Symposium, is a “disordered erotics” that “spirals down to bestial releases.” It is notable that the first group affected by the Dionysian cult are women, and the first act of these crazed women is to abandon their husbands and children—and then run wild in the woods nursing animals and engaging in orgies. Euripides presents a scene of perversion, a perverted femininity and motherhood. The Bacchae also adopt masculine traits, like strength, a desire to hunt, and acts of violence—like tearing animals apart with their bare hands. Dr. Grabowski observes this all leads to the destruction of the polis, as “if you pervert women… there will be no children… no future generations, and… no polis.” The women’s rejection of domestic roles, driven by Dionysus’ “erotic mania,” fractures the social fabric, leading to a “complete and utter collapse… of a polis.”

The climax of this societal destruction is Agave’s horrific act of killing her son, Pentheus, which Dcn. Garlick describes as the “zenith of this Dionysian madness,” epitomizing the cult’s perversion of natural relationships. Under Dionysus’ influence, Agave, “foaming at the mouth and her crazed eyes rolling with frenzy,” dismembers Pentheus, unaware he is her son until Cadmus restores her sanity. Dr. Grabowski calls this “sadistic” and “hideously perverse,” arguing it ensures “no polis… can survive if the Dionysian cult wins.” The murder of Thebes’ king by...

Madness, piety, gore, and reason! Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, host Dcn. Harrison Garlick and the always insightful Dr. Frank Grabowski delve into the first part of Euripides’ The Bacchae—a chilling yet captivating Greek tragedy that explores piety, eros, the nature of the divine, and the fragility of societal order.

The guys explore Dionysus, a god transformed from Homer’s jovial wine deity into a “cruel” and “diabolical” figure worshipped through “frenzied madness and the bestial release of sex and violence." With its graphic imagery, raw intensity, and ambiguous morality, this play offers a rich discussion, serving as a critical antecedent to Plato’s Symposium and revealing surprising parallels to Jesus Christ amidst its sordid chaos.

Join us as we peel back the “bloody, terrible layers” of this darkly mesmerizing drama.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Visit our Patreon page to view all our guides to the great books!

Guest:

Dr. Frank Grabowski: At the time of recordin, a professor of philosophy at Rogers State University, third-order Franciscan, and a valued member of the Sunday Great Books group. His profound insights into Greek literature and philosophy illuminate the complexities of The Bacchae. Dr. Grabowski now serves as the Dean of Faculty at Holy Family Classical School.

Why should you read The Bacchae?

The Bacchae challenges readers to explore religion, erotics, piety, cosmic order, and human nature in a controversial and unsettling landscape. Euripides’ intent is not clear; thus, the reader is left to interpret a drama that seems to test longstanding Greek concepts, like piety and the gods. Dr. Grabowski acknowledges the play as an integral part of the “great conversation” in the Western canon, and Dcn. Garlick agrees by highlighting the play as an important antecedent to Plato’s Euthyphro and Symposium.

Though the work includes disturbing imagery, it is within those images that Euripides is wrestling with erotics, piety, and the cosmos. Somewhat shockingly, the play presents several parallels to Jesus Christ and invites the reader into challenging comparisons. Overall, The Bacchae stands as an important—though controversial—work in exploring the nature of man and his relation to the divine.

Next Episodes:

Next week, we continue with Part 2 of The Bacchae, diving into Pentheus’ tragic fall, the Bacchae’s destructive frenzy, and the play’s enigmatic conclusion. Upcoming episodes feature Aristophanes’ The Clouds with guest Zena Hits and The Frogs with Tish Oxenreider, as we pave the way for Plato’s dialogues.

Thank You:

A heartfelt thank you to Dr. Frank Grabowski for his brilliant insights and to our listeners for joining us on this ascent through the great books. Keep exploring, and we’ll see you next week for more of The Bacchae’s darkly mesmerizing drama!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick and Mr. Eli Stone discuss the second and final part of Oedipus at Colonus—wherein Sophocles brings the horrific tale of Oedipus to a beautiful, redemptive end.

Deacon and Eli discuss the dramatic zenith of Oedipus’ life, the theme of redemptive suffering, the binding power of love, and all the various ways this play comments on the relationships in Antigone and Oedipus Rex.

Go visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!

Check out this awesome guide to Oedipus at Colonus!

Here is the opening of Deacon's guide to Oedipus at Colonus:

Oedipus at Colonus is a beautiful tale. It brings a tremendous amount of meaning to the Oedipus Cycle. Sophocles offers us perennial truths on fate, the agency of man, and the cosmic whole. I greatly enjoyed, as a first time reader, the narrative of Oedipus at Colonus—especially the ending. It is a tremendous zenith to the Oedipus Cycle and one that parallels the Book of Job in its ability to address the question of suffering.

Oedipus at Colonus remains an important text within the Western canon of great books, as it is a beautiful antecedent to how later thinkers, like St. Augustine, will come to understand the world as subject to Divine Providence. Sophocles offers several preliminary considerations on whether the fate that rules the world does so according to justice; and whether man must adopt a certain docility in consideration of such a fate. The balance, however, of man’s agency and fate’s dominion is a perennial question.

I am in debt to Mr. Eli Stone who not only guided me through this work but highly recommended the podcast cover the Oedipus Cycle. I very much appreciate his insights and all the wisdom he has brought to our conversations.

Amongst all the horrific suffering, Oedipus at Colonus is able to bring a theme of redemption to the story of Oedipus. Like Antigone, he serves as a sign of the gods—a sign of cosmic fate, docility to divine order, and the meaning of suffering. May we come to understand Sophocles’ lessons and how they invite us to a more ordered existence.

Episode Highlights

• Redemptive Death: Dcn. Garlick shares, “I fell in love with this play when Oedipus sees the thunder head rolling in… his ecstatic joy that death comes."
• Theseus’ Nobility: Theseus’ interruption of sacrifice to save Oedipus’ daughters highlights Athenian justice: “Sojourners… are the special patronage of Zeus."
• Polyneices’ Tragedy: Oedipus’ curse on Polyneices sets up Antigone: “Please bury me… we’re setting the foundation… for the first play."
• Love’s Role: Antigone’s mediation and Oedipus’ farewell underscore love’s binding power: “She is love and love binds," as Deacon note.

Guest Spotlight: Eli Stone

Eli Stone returns, bringing his expertise from his time at the Chancery, his discernment with the Western Dominicans, and his current role at the University of Tulsa Honors College. His passion shines through: “These are my favorite Greek plays… I’ve really enjoyed them." Eli’s insights on providence, love, and historical allegory enrich the discussion.

Next Episode Teaser

Next week, we dive into Euripides’ Bacchae, a stark contrast to...

In this episode of Ascend the Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and returning guest Eli Stone dive into the first half of Sophocles’ Oedipus at Colonus, the third play in the Theban cycle by publication order but the second in narrative chronology.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule.

Check out Patreon page for written guides to the great books!

Recorded in rural Oklahoma, this episode explores Oedipus’ transformation from a cursed exile to a figure of divine significance, set against the backdrop of Athens’ post-Peloponnesian War turmoil.

The hosts unpack key themes like suffering’s pedagogical purpose, the role of prophecy, guest friendship (xenia), and Athenian identity, while reflecting on Sophocles’ intent for his audience. Expect a deep dive into the characters of Oedipus, Antigone, Ismene, Creon, and Theseus, with a focus on how their interactions foreshadow the play’s redemptive conclusion.

Why should you read Oedipus at Colonus part one?

Oedipus at Colonus Part 1 offers a compelling entry into Sophocles’ profound exploration of suffering, redemption, and divine will, making it essential reading for anyone seeking to understand the human condition through the lens of Greek tragedy.

This section introduces Oedipus as a blind exile, transformed by suffering into a figure of spiritual insight—“Oedipus… has this spiritual insight… He is the most lucid he’s ever been"—setting the stage for his role as a “sign of both suffering and blessing."

Through themes like guest friendship (xenia), the evolving justice of the Eumenides, and the binding power of Antigone’s love—Sophocles crafts a narrative that resonates with an Athenian audience grappling with their own post-Peloponnesian War identity, while offering timeless reflections on providence and resilience: “Man is not his own agent… inside a cosmic order." Reading this part immerses you in the tension and anticipation of Oedipus’ redemptive arc, preparing you for the transcendent conclusion in Part 2.

Check out our written guide for more!

Next Episode Teaser

Join us next week for Oedipus at Colonus Part 2, where we’ll witness Oedipus’ dramatic confrontations with Creon and Polyneices, and the transcendent moment of his death that ties the Theban cycle together.

We’ll explore how his suffering becomes a blessing for Athens, the role of love as a binding agent, and the historical allegory for an Athenian audience. Deacon Garlick shares, “I fell in love with this play when Oedipus sees the thunder head rolling in… his ecstatic joy that death comes." Don’t miss it on Ascend the Great Books Podcast!

Aristotle said Oedipus the King was the best tragedy. Today, Dcn. Harrison Garlick is joined by Mr. Eli Stone and our friend Josiah to discuss Oedipus the King (Oedipus Rex) by Sophocles - the second play in the Oedipus cycle or Theban plays.

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Check out our Patreon for our written guides!

Here is a letter Dcn. Garlick wrote to our supporters about Oedipus the King:

Oedipus the King is, according to Aristotle, the best of the Greek tragedies. Through Oedipus’ own investigation, he comes to understand the horrific truth of his identity—and this leads the reader into marvelous reflection on fate, freedom, self-knowledge, and the cosmic order.

Oedipus the King is a play I had to come to appreciate. Unlike Antigone, it is not one I loved at first. In fact, my lackluster appreciation for the play is why I scheduled only one episode discussing it. Over time, however, I matured in my own understanding and see it as an antecedent to the philosophical principle of know thyself. I would suggest one could glean much from comparing Oedipus the King and First Alcibiades by Plato.

The drama does have layers for the attentive reader. It presents clearly a question on the interplay of freedom and fate, which is reminiscent of our discussions on the Iliad. Moreover, there is much to consider on the theme of suffering, and how that theme is presented in the Odyssey, the Oresteia, and Oedipus the King. Note that these two concepts are tethered—as the journey to self-knowledge is often an arduous one of suffering and great difficulty. Lastly, the work shines further light onto the mystery that is Antigone.

Oedipus the King is without question a tragedy—and one without much hope. The reader must hold for the marvelous redemptive arc of Oedipus at Colonus, which runs parallel to the story of Job yet with its own unique and fascinating character.

May Oedipus serve as an icon for what it means to suffer into self-knowledge and the role of such suffering in the pursuit of wisdom and virtue.

Check our thegreatbookspodcast.com for more!