ACT I

Michele Leslie Jones, I guess it's time for us to start this initial conversation, because we've been sitting here cracking up. 

Leslie Crazy. 

Michele I am so glad you're with us. Thanks for making time for us. You've been busy. You got a new book. You been out on the road. You're here, you're there. You're a New York Times bestseller, and you made time for us. So thank you for that. 

Leslie I know I'm having…

Michele Having a moment. 

Leslie Yeah. 

Michele And you deserve it. You worked hard for it. Bask in it. Sit in it, simmer in it. 

Leslie It is hard for me to take compliments. You know, you just think of it as work, you know? 

Michele Yeah, well, this is work. You know, every so often when you work hard, there are dividends. So, you know, bask in that. That's a good moment. 

Leslie Yes. 

Michele Well, this is a podcast where we spend time talking about memory and identity, about the things that we saw and heard and witnessed in our mama's kitchens, because a lot of things happen in a kitchen that go beyond the meals that are served and the food that fills up the cupboards, all kinds of things happen in a kitchen. So when you think of a kitchen, just a bit of biography. You were born in Memphis and then you moved to California. You've moved around the country. You maybe and aunts and uncles and grandmas who had other kitchens. But when I ask you about your mama's kitchen, the kitchen that had the biggest impact on you, where was it? What did it look like? What kind of smells were coming from the stove? What kind of things happened there? 

Leslie You know, I didn't know what the podcast was about. 

Michele Oh, you just said yes.

Leslie I just said yes. Because Lola said, you know, you know. 

Michele There's a shared friend of ours. 

Leslie And I was like, okay, oh, like, okay, yeah, I'll do it. And I didn't know that's what it was. But as soon as you just described it, all these flashes went through my head of significant kitchens, you know what I'm saying? Like, because my mom wasn't the best cook. Like, she could really fry chicken really well and fish really well. She was known for those two things. My dad did most of the cooking, but we traveled a lot. So these kitchens that are flashing through my head, I just specifically remember my grandmother's kitchen where we ate a lot of good food. And then like, I'm thinking about the kitchen that we had in Lisa Street where my dad would put so much garlic into food that I wouldn't even be able to come into the house because the house would have this garlic smell, and it just would make me so it just was so overpowering, because he would do that with chicken thighs and they would be good. The thighs were good, but garlicky as hell, you know, just remember just him cooking goulash and my mom just always cleaning up, like, help making us clean up. Not hurt us. So much cleaning up, but making us clean up. But it's so funny that you said that. It's just so many kitchens that flashed through my head. You know. 

Michele When you think of your home kitchen, the kitchen that really kind of still sits inside you, that that helped you become the person that you are now. Was it in Memphis or California? 

Leslie That is such a good question because I can't pick it. I would have to say both, because it's just one part of where I was coming up with them. When we came to California, I was a different person, you know? And that kitchen was the kitchen that I'm specifically thinking about is the kitchen. I last saw my mom. 

Michele Mhm. What was that kitchen like? 

Leslie Well we lived in Lynnwood and we had to downgrade because my father had lost his job. So we moved to Lynnwood the other part of Lynnwood and we were the front house, like, we were the front house of the apartments that would be in the back. So we had one, two, we had three bedrooms, two bathrooms, a main bathroom, and then the small bathroom in my bathroom that connected to the washroom. And that's where the back door was, because I snuck out of there a lot of times. I got caught a lot of times too, but it would go directly into the kitchen when you walk in, right when you walk in, the refrigerator is right there. And I do believe that it was just counter space. Then there was the front window, which was the sink. So many days looking out that window on onto the street because all the cool kids, it was outside. So I would always try to act like I was washing dishes or whatever so I could look outside, and then it would go into this corner where there was a hood and a stove right here. And then in this area was the table where you ate it, and then there was another window right there. And then that went right into the living room. Uh, I just remember when I walked out of the house to, uh, go back to school, my mom was over there washing her hair, and she just she had to bend down because the hood, you know, and she was like, all right. And I was like, hey, bye, mom. Damn. Mhm. Who? Girl. 

Michele Memories in the kitchen. A lot of lessons in the kitchen. 

Leslie Yeah, yeah. And the lesson that taught me is like. You know what? When you say good bye to somebody. I mean, especially if it's somebody like your brother or your sister or your kid or your mom and dad, like, and, you know, you going away for a couple of days or, you know what I'm saying? Like, are you going back to school? I mean, like don't just throw it away. Like, I really I take myself back there so many times because, uh, you going to make me cry? But, you know, I just remember that she had borrowed money to give me $5, and she needed $5 to put into her tank, and, uh. I just was like, bye. But I really wish I had went over there and hugged her. Because that was the last time I saw her healthy. Mhm. Yeah. 

Michele But isn't that what mothers do. You know, we talked to a lot of people on the show. Leslie, I know you need to take a minute. It's okay. Yes. Okay. Um

Leslie I never know what's going to. You never know what's going to, you know, hit you, you know? 

Michele Yeah. 

Leslie That's how that's how that type of stuff happens. 

Michele Uh, that's what. 

Leslie You ain't supposed to make. 

Michele Me. I did not intend to. I did not intend to. I know, but you know that this is the. This is the space, you know. And when you think about, um, the people that you've lost, especially, you know, our moms, they they sacrificed so much for us, right? She needed something for herself, but she was willing to put that $5 in your pocket. You know, she wanted to make sure she put some coin in your pocket. 

Leslie Yeah, but you know what's so crazy is about how we don't really realize that moment until you're older to appreciate it. Because when you're young and I don't even remember what I spent the $5 on. So it's just like how hard we are on our parents. She was 38. You know what I'm saying? Do you remember 38? Damn. I definitely wouldn't have been raising two kids. You know what I'm saying? And one in college. And it's just like the way that we throw moments away sometimes. I just always tell kids, you know, hey, everybody have their dynamics, their family stuff, you know? But, like, it's a scary world without your parents. It's a scary where when your parents leave this world, it's a scary world. Without them, there are people who really do love you unconditionally. And I'm not saying that that's like that. Every family, of course, you know, there's dynamics, like I said. But. 

Michele You know, I do know what you're saying. And sometimes it feels like they filled us up. They filled up our cup. They filled us up with all these little sayings and all these little things, almost like they anticipated in a day when we wouldn't be able to call them up on the phone or wouldn't rely on them. You just wrote this book called Leslie F*cking Jones. But when I read your book. I realized how much of that they did for you. Your mom. But especially your dad. Um, he was always hyping you up. Always boosting you up. Is that the kind of thing that made it possible for you, years later, to walk on stage as a comedian? Because that's a really hard thing to do, to walk on a stage and try to make people laugh. How much of that related to the things that he told you when you were eating breakfast cereal, the things that they told you when they were putting a lunch together to send you out the door to go to school. How much of that started that confidence, that inner confidence that you have to have? How much of it started back home and specifically in the kitchen? 

Leslie I mean, I would say all of it because my dad was just, I mean, confident, confident, confident, tall, six, four, genius, literally a genius, very innovative, had a lot of initiative. And I can't explain it to you because people think that is just was like a motivational speeches all through the house. It wasn't that at all. It was just no toleration for failure. So it wasn't even in a mean way. It was just more of like, you can't what, like he would be like you. What? You don't know how to what? Like you know what I'm saying? I just even the smallest question of like, man, I don't know if we going to win. All right, well, if you're not going to, if you going to sit there and say it, then like, my dad was more of just like have common sense, like you're not stupid. I'm not stupid. I'm my wife's not stupid. We don't have stupid kids, you know, and, you know, being in the military, there was discipline and there was structure. It was more of like, you know damn well what you have to do to make it. Let's not make this hard. Like it was just always more of like, well, there's no such thing as me giving you money for nothing because you just brought a home, so I don't give money to mediocre people. Like he just was no such thing as crowd participation with him. 

Michele So they had very high expectations for you. Very high. 

Leslie Yeah. It just was just. It was just expected. Like you back me doing bad. That's not to happen here in this house. 

Michele That wasn't going to happen. 

ACT II

Michele So this is a show about your mom is kitchen. But it's interesting because in your household, your…

Leslie I keep talking about my dad. 

Michele Your dad was the one who did a lot of the cooking. What would you be serving up on a weeknight in the Jones household? 

Leslie It really depends. Like when we moved here to California, there was a lot of less cooking and we had to get used to that. But my dad still would cook, but mostly like he always, you know, he went to Korea twice. He just knew how to do different things. So you make goulash, which was our favorite because it would just be a wok and just filled with meat and vegetables. And just because he did like this, he was like, we haven't stir fry tonight. And it's like. 

Michele So it was stir fry. But you called it goulash. 

Leslie Because it had everything in it. So we would call it stir fry goulash. So that's a thing. So you have two little wings in there. You had the shrimp beef. And then it would just be a bunch of vegetables, and we frickin loved it. And then he made the spinach casserole. That's how he would get us spinach. And I'm telling you, to this day, I make this. I make this is so. And it's so simple to make. And it's one of my favorite things to eat because it's eggs and spinach and bacon and onions and garlic is so good. And then he would slice tomatoes on the top. Me and my brother would literally fight over the tomatoes, like he would have to put extra tomatoes when he would cook it, because the tomatoes would melt on top. Oh my God, we would fight over those tomatoes. 

Michele So was there a lot of laughter in your house? 

Leslie Oh Jesus wept. I said this all the time. If my grandmother or my father or my brother had decided to be a comedian, I would not be famous because they would. When I say my grandmother was one of the funniest people and my dad, my dad was just crazy. He was just he was crazy, funny. Like, because he loved Richard Pryor. He loved he loved Millie Jackson. He loved. He loved, um, pig foot. Oh, Flip Wilson. Oh, you could never say nothing bad about Flip Wilson in the house. Like Flip Wilson was his dog. Richard. You know, like I say, Richard Pryor. I like all of the let's do it again. I knew I, I saw all of that stuff. So my dad was hilarious. It was we would always laugh and it was always something funny going on. It was always something. I mean, if it wasn't like we could be sitting watching TV and my dad, my dad would just come in and just accidentally trip over us and be like, oh, I'm sorry, I see you. Y'all there. And it's just like funny, stupid stuff. Like in we would we would howl laughing because it was just dumb.

Michele They call it cutting up.

Leslie Cutting up, just doing stupid. Oh my god. And then when we have like we always had fish fries on Fridays. Always. Every Friday families got together. And you know, it's so funny when you little, you're just so happy to see the rest of your family smiling and laughing and cackling and having fun and dancing and stuff. But when you get older, you really don't. You really realize, like they was working class and letting steam off on Friday night, you know what I mean? Like, oh man, we had so much fun. 

Michele When did you see comedy as a path? Because you were cracking people up at home. Y'all were cutting up hijinx. You went to school. And that's one of the ways you found acceptance. You made people laugh at school. You were tall. You're a good athlete. But you you could you could crack people up. And when that opens, when that happens, the world cracks open a little bit for you, right? People like to be able to. 

Leslie People become a little… I mean, if you think about it, think about it if when you laugh, you do open up a little bit. You know, I mean, anybody making you laugh does loosen up. Laughter is is a medicine is a it's I hate to say this. It's a joy orgasm. 

Michele It's a release. 

Leslie I mean, think about it. When you laugh, you feel so good afterwards. 

Michele And you do feel it. There's chemistry involved there. 

Leslie Exactly. Somebody that make you laugh you be like oh, that they know something about me. That's something they. We are like, in a way, you know what I mean? Somebody crack a joke. Even if it's a small joke and you get it and you're actually kind of thinking it too, and somebody crack a joke, you'd be like, I just connected with you like I love when I watch comedy and somebody does a joke and you'd be like, damn, I was thinking that man. That's crazy. Uh, and you, you just now you want to listen to more. Does that make sense? And it just lightens up whatever it is like. And it also can make you go, damn, that shit would. So serious, huh? I was bad for nothing. So this happens to everybody. Oh, okay. I'm supposed to laugh at that, you know what I mean? Like, you know. Oh, I got pissed off and I should’ve got pissed off like it's needed. Everyone should be shot in the arm with a comedy show at least once a year, right? At least once a year. You should go to a comedy show. 

Michele And in tough times, you really need it. You know? You really need it. You really need it. You have lost a lot of people that you're close to. You lost your brother, your mom, your dad. Um, you started doing comedy, stepped back a minute when you got some advice from Jamie Fox. I bet. You know, I read all this, um. And he told you live a little bit and then come back to it after you lived a little bit. Did comedy help you cope with all of this? 

Leslie Yea I don't see that when people say cope I don't know what that means because it's just life. Like living. Cope means like being able to deal with life. Right? 

Michele Mhm. 

Leslie Yeah. Cause my, you know my cope. I just like take care. I can't explain it. Like how do I, how do you cope. 

Michele It sounds like I mean I'm hearing dad maybe sounds like again this is just what you're supposed to do. 

Leslie I just feel like. Just live. Like live. This is life. But I guess maybe. Yes, that it's an outlet of being able to go up and then talk about stuff. Because whenever I would tell a joke and if it was, you know, part, which was always about my life, and you would get that familiarity from the audience, like, like you get some people going, like laughing because they go, oh, that happens to me all the time. Oh yeah, that's a bit of therapy for yourself because you go, yeah, I'm not going to go through this. Yeah, this is normal. This doesn't make sense. 

Michele Only makes sense. 

Leslie So. So yeah. Maybe. Yeah, maybe comedy did help me cope with a lot of stuff. You’re absolutely right. We call it therapy all the time. 

Michele Comedians call their work therapy. 

Leslie Yeah. I mean therapy for both of us, for the audience and for that. 

Michele I wonder if it's also if there's a certain power that goes with that, because I think some of the most honest conversations in America happen on a, on a comedy stage. You can go places, you can say things, you can read people, you can speak truth to power in a way that you can't in a lot of other places. 

Leslie And it's very, very that's a very tricky, tricky thing to to not let it do that because you are not God. And, um, you have been permitted a skill that is a gift. And this is why I tell people all the time you did not create it. You may be good at it, but you didn't. Created when I die, comedy still going to be here. Comedy just going to go through somebody else. You can sing good. All good. You could do them good runs girl. But let me tell you something. When you stop singing, we going to pick somebody else because that's what the art does. So. So yeah, when you get up on stage and you have this power, the only thing that I take control and power of is really, really. And this is the honest truth. Laughter and joy. I want to take that power and just shove it in your face. Like, especially if I see somebody that's not smiling. Oh, I came right into them. I look at them a lot. I, I with them when I'm talking about stuff so they can feel like, oh, she, she sees me like she sees me. Whatever it is you going through, dude, whatever it is you going through, I'm right here. I'm right here. Let's talk because I can feel your pain, I feel something, I want you to laugh. And eventually they break. I've seen people with their hands up. And they'll eventually just be like. You could see that because that is a responsibility. Does that make sense? Like butter. Like butter and jelly has a responsibility to be on top of toast. Does that make sense?

Michele Help me with that. 

Leslie Okay, I'll put it like this. I'll put it like this. The toast is toasted. You know what I'm saying? The butter is buttering. Okay, I'm the jelly. It's my responsibility to be jelly. All right, so it's my responsibility to take that joy and spread it out to this audience. That's a responsibility. That is something that you take serious. You don't take that for granted. 

ACT 3

Michele When you think of home and you think of something that tastes like home for you. What is one of the things that makes you feel like this? This is comfort food because we always like to share recipe with our listeners. 

Leslie Dressing. 

Michele Dressing. 

Leslie Not stuffing. Dressing. Okay. Cornbread dressing. If you can make some good dressing. Uh, my aunt is right. Well, my grandmother used to be the only one who could make me dress. And because she was used. My mother could never make just. She always put too much sage in it to be green. And we'd be like, you need to go talk to grandma and ask her what she put in hers, because this is not good. Good. Um. Dressing is my like. They know every time I come home somebody. 

Michele And not just for the holidays. You eat dressing all year round. 

Leslie Oh I literally have three. Like when my aunt comes here she fixes me two big pans and she freezes it. So when I take it out the freezer, I throw it in the pan and bake it, and it tastes like she just made it. 

Michele What is so special about this dressing? 

Leslie It's so good. Girl. You have had dressing right?

Michele Oh I know what you're talking about. But what's so good about this dressing? 

Leslie Well, let me explain to the listeners. It's like having a whole meal in your mouth it’s so good, especially turkey dressing. Oh my God. Just two seasonings and the cornbread and the meat in on yummy yummy yummy to meet them. I don't know what makes dressing dressing, but it's like eating. Oh, especially when she's making it and get ready to put it in the pan. She let me taste it. I like it when it's like that and she won't let me eat it like that, but I'll grab like some because it's so good. 

Michele It's got raw eggs in it. So she's probably trying to protect you from that because it does have like no rights. But does she put sausage in it? No. Okay. I'm just trying to figure out if you said so. 

Leslie I mean, you must be from Louisiana. What part of South you from? Because they do put sausage in and I don't like. 

Michele Okay, so what do you … She uses turkey. 

Leslie Right. She uses turkey or chicken or chicken or she does, she has made pork dressing before too, but she always makes giblet gravy. 

Michele With the little pieces in it. Mhm. 

Leslie Exactly. It's really a poultry to me dish. It's more of a poultry dish. So she could use chicken. You can use chicken. I know white people are looking at this like what in the hell are they talking about. 

Michele You have some gravy on it? You put some gravy on it? 

Leslie Gravy? Yeah. Giblet gravy. Mhm. Give the gravy. Take the giblets in the neck and stuff. You know how you boil that mimic gravy. 

Michele It sounds delicious. I'm going to have to get, you know. Do you, do you have a written down somewhere, the recipe. Yes. Okay. So we're going to get that from you. We're going to get the. 

Leslie Literally we wrote we I talked to my grandmother like maybe. 

Michele Say that again. Say that again because we had talked to some people who say that they want the taste of home, but they can't find it because no one ever wrote the recipe down. So it's so important to actually interview those. Yes. Like the recipes when. 

Leslie She was so, I don't know what made me do this. One night I called her and I say, because this is when she you of write of mine and she's happy and stuff. I was like, Big Mama, we going to sit on the phone and you going to tell me every recipe. And I just sat and we, I wrote the recipe for dressing. I wrote the recipe for her cornbread for a custard pie. Matter of fact, no one could get the custard pie, and I, I my cousin was like, yo, do you have a recipe? And I sent it to him. He was like, nobody had the recipe to the custard pie. Um, to, uh, to, um, her greens, um, ribs. Um, she gave me all the main ones. 

Michele So that's important to get those recipes, because you want to make sure. I just go get. 

Leslie Them on with your grandma real quick. And just even if you don't cook, get on your phone with your grandmama and just start writing recipes. 

Michele I have one last question. When you have come up in life and you come from, you grew up in a kitchen that was pretty simple. And then suddenly life is good to you. You've got a little coin, you got a little bit of money, you have a little bit of real estate, and you can create the kitchen of your dreams with islands and double ovens and multiple cooktops. But what do you do to make sure that even when you're in your kitchen, that reflects all the success that you've had in life, that it has that thing that made the kitchen you grew up in special? What is that thing in your kitchen now? 

Leslie Mm. Oh, I guess a cast iron skillet. Ever a cast iron skillet. Uh, I think that's the staple. Yeah. I got like, three of them. I got the big one. I got the little small one where you can make sirup in it. And then I got the little medium one. Um, yeah. That that that that would be. That's so funny, because I'm not a kitchen person. I like my kitchen to be off on the side hidden because I don't I don't like that open concept where people can see my damn dishes and dishes. I don't like that. So I like my kitchen very, not personality, but very nonchalant, pretty clean. That's all you need, functional things. But a cast iron skillet was one of the first things that in that big dressing pan. 

Michele Oh, the way you talk about the dressing, you got to have the big dressing pan. And I'm I have to hit you up to find out, you know, to help people understand. When you have a skillet, you have to take care of it, don't you? No, no, no. So fast. Thank you. It. 

Leslie Yeah. Because it will fast. 

Michele You have to take care. Oh my…

Leslie God. 

Michele Put a little layer of a little layer of grease on it before you put it away, you know. Yeah. 

Leslie You know what I'm saying? Before you put it in into the thing, you got to take care of it. 

Michele Lesley F’n Jones I love talking to you. Thank you so much. 

Leslie Thank you so much, I appreciate you. 

OUTRO

Michele: Well I told you that was going to be fun! Leslie Jones is one of a kind. And wasn’t it something to hear her talk about how she uses her comedy like a magnetic force field to pull people in—and to help pull them through tough stuff. Making people laugh day after day is a skill. Making people feel, seen and understood while making them laugh—well, THAT’S a gift. 

This show is called Your MAMA’s Kitchen but I am so glad we heard about Leslie's father's role in that space and the way he nurtured his daughter’s growth … and particularly her confidence as a performer.  I think anyone who has bent over in laughter watching Leslie Jones do her thing, will have a special thank you for him for seeing and supporting her talent.

I hope you all follow Leslie’s advice to sit down with the people who fed you and get all those recipes like Leslie did with her grandma. Those recipes will be worth their weight in gold. Trust me on that.

If you want to make that cornbread dressing Leslie loves so much, you can find her grandma’s recipe on my Instagram page at Michele underscore underscore Norris, that’s two underscores. AND you can also find it at our new website—yourmamaskitchen.com. While you are there, you can find all the recipes from all of our previous podcasts. 

And one last thing….  

We want to hear from you! We’re opening up our Inbox for you to record yourself and tell us about your mama’s recipes, some memories from YOUR kitchen growing up, or your thoughts on some of the stories you’ve heard on this podcast. Make sure to send us a Voice Memo at Y-M-K AT Higher Ground Productions DOT com… for a chance to be featured in a future episode!

Thanks for joining us!  I hope the new year is off to a great start.  See you next week and until then—be bountiful.

CREDITS

Michele This has been a Higher Ground and Audible Original. Produced by Higher Ground Studios.

Senior producer - Natalie Rinn 

Producer - Sonia Htoon 

Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen and Ryan Kozlowsky 

Higher Ground Audio's editorial assistants are Jenna Levin and Camila Thur de Koos.

Executive producers for Higher Ground are Nick White, Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and me, Michele Norris.

Executive producers for Audible are Nick D’Angelo and Ann Heppermann.

The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.

Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media.

Talent booker - Angela Peluso

Chief Content Officer Rachel Ghiazza

And that’s it—goodbye everybody.

NOVENA:

Copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.

Sound Recording copyright 2023 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC.