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Nicole Ransome: Hi. I'm Audible Editor Nicole, and as a major fan of the Housewives franchise, I'm elated to introduce listeners to Heather Gay, who made her TV premiere on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, and now is making her authorial debut with her new listen, . Welcome, Heather.
Heather Gay: Hi, everybody. Thank you for having me, Nicole. I've never heard “authorial.” Is it authorial debut?
NR: Authorial [laughs]. Yes. I googled that one.
HG: Good one. And it is now added to my vocabulary.
NR: Yes. Love a takeaway.
HG: Totally. It's a good one too. It's a good one.
NR: So, to start, I just want to say, I learned so much about Mormonism from Bad Mormon, and I loved hearing about all the details, like becoming a woman and going on missionary. So, I wanted to ask, how did it feel to write Bad Mormon, and when did you decide it was time to write your story down and share it with the world?
HG: The way it felt to write Bad Mormon felt like therapy and a catharsis of just finally really giving myself some grace and looking back on my childhood and my life and why I made the choices I did, and why I suffered so hard from the consequences of those choices too, you know? It just gave me a great perspective. But I think the reason I wrote Bad Mormon is because it was the first time I was given the opportunity to really put my story to paper. And I have always felt like a writer at heart, but I've never had the opportunity, never dreamed I'd have the opportunity. And to finally put my story down and, like, craft the chapter headings. Each one is like a playlist of my life, a song lyric or title, and just to really wrest control of my story and respect my story, respect my experience, and make sure that if I was going to do something as bold as say I was a bad Mormon and leave the church, that I left no stone unturned, and really told my story from my perspective and without reservation.
NR: You talked in Bad Mormon about the importance of Mormon rituals and traditions. So, how much mental fortitude did it take to break those built-in habits?
HG: They're not broken [laughs]. I think in terms of Mormon ritual, Mormon scripture, song lyrics, and movie quotes, that is what's playing constantly in my head. Lines from Housewives, lines from 1980s movies, and scripture and ritual from Mormonism. Someone can sometimes say a phrase that we say in the temple, and I will reply with the exact verse I'm supposed to, you know, with my head bowed just like we did in the temple. It is ingrained in us. Because we go to the temple so often. It's a weekly ritual that we recite these lines by rote. So, Mormons are good memorizers as well as good secret keepers.
"Our faith is built on the premise that we have the answers to everything. So, it can be pretty unsettling when you realize that you really don't know anything."
NR: That makes so much sense. I noticed that you did that a lot in your book. I actually wondered if you were coming off the dome with that [laughs]. It's literally, like, you just know where each line was supposed to go. Wow.
HG: It just punctuates the story of our lives. Like, we all do it. We all have those memes in our head that we blurred that line between kind of our reality and other people's. And I love it. That's where I live, so, it's comfortable.
NR: Oh, my goodness. So then, that brings me to my next question. You described marriage as being like the ultimate status for a woman to reach within the Mormon faith, and you talked a great deal about your divorce and how trying it was for you and the marriage itself. So, what was the reaction to your divorce, in terms of your community? And can you expand upon the reaction that you received from your family members, because you touched on your brothers and how your mother received it when you told her that you were unhappy. I wanted to know, how was that received?
HG: It was received in the way a lot of major life deviations are received in the Mormon faith, which is we just don't speak of it. And Billy, my ex-husband, was invited to every single family gathering as if we were still married. There was no line in the sand of what I wanted or needed and what was best for the family. And so, I just learned quickly when I wanted to get divorced—I mean, I never wanted to—when divorce was inevitable, I learned really quickly the nuances of that faith being based around a nuclear family. And there really wasn't a spot at the table for someone with a broken home. If I had immediately remarried, I could've quickly passed over that phase of being left out and isolated and lonely and feeling like a huge failure. But because I stayed single and had no desire to remarry, I really was left kind of twisting on the vine, you know, just a dangling skin tag that made everybody uncomfortable. No one points it out, but they can all see this dangling skin tag that doesn't quite fit, and they just don't point it out, but it makes everyone uncomfortable. And that's how I felt amongst my closest friends and family members.
NR: What drew you to the decision to not remarry?
HG: Just the fact that marriage was so trying and so hard. But also I felt obligated to this family to raise my children with not having to change their circumstances at all. I didn't want them to have to blend the family or have new siblings or have a new stepdad. I felt like I chose this man, I had children with this man, and I was going to honor that until at least my children were out of the home.
NR: Okay. And your daughters are how old now?
HG: They're teenagers. They are 19, 17, and 15.
NR: Oh, my goodness. The time is ticking.
HG: I know, I know. I might find love when the last child is out of the house. We will see.
NR: Okay. I'm rooting.
HG: Thank you.
NR: And on the topic of your daughters, you are currently raising three amazing young ladies. And I just want to know how have your daughters responded to all the amazing things you've worked for after your marriage, and honestly, even in your marriage? Because I feel like you really talked about the sacrifices, and how much you relied on your faith to keep that marriage going. From the divorce to now, how are they receiving the great things that Heather Gay is doing?
HG: Well, it was fortuitous that they were at an age where all of these great things impressed them. You know, like being on TV and being able to buy them a car and being able to buy them a new house, and being able to provide for them entirely. It was a new opportunity for them to kind of meet their mom as someone other than just, you know, the sad lady in the corner [laughs]. But they have rallied around me, they have supported me, and they have been my greatest champions. I described us as kind of like the four musketeers. It's really lucky that we're all girls, because that bond is tight. And they are the reason that I am still here. They gave me purpose, they gave my life meaning, and they were kind of the hard stop that made me press forward, because it was hard. I just, I didn't want to get married and have children to be a single mom, you know? I wanted to grow old with the father of my kids, and have the picket fence and the Labrador and the whole dream. And I felt like I'd given up a lot in order to have that dream. And so, when you sacrifice so much of your natural self, you recognize, well, that's why it would never work because you don't even know who you are. How can you commit your life to someone else?
NR: I was going to ask, what life lessons would you want your daughters to take away from your story?
HG: That there is no secret cabinet that you unlock as a wife and mother that changes who you are inside. And wherever you go, there you are. And you are magnificent creatures that deserve to honor every part of yourself, the dark, scary, I-don't-get-it parts, and the beautiful, bright, God-fearing parts. That you are an entire person that deserves to be entirely loved, and by anyone, at any time. There is no time table to your path in life. Just be free and blossom like a rose.
NR: Like a wild rose [laughs].
HG: Yeah. Wild rose. There was a time when that gave me more joy to say, but nonetheless.
NR: Yes, as a fan, I'm aware.
HG: If you know, you know.
NR: Oh yes. And I know. So, what do you think will be the last impression Mormonism has on not just you, but then also your daughters as well?
HG: They have been so quick to kind of embrace this new lifestyle. I know it's hard for them. I mean, we live in a very, very Mormon, insular community. And I can see the little microaggressions and nuances of them being left out and bullied a little bit. But I think that, by and large, they feel grateful to have opportunity. They're all going out of state for college, which is their first kind of eye opening to the real world. My daughter that's at UC Santa Barbara right now, Ashley, the oldest, she just keeps saying whenever we talk, "The world is so big." And that makes me... my heart just bursts, you know? Because I thought my world was so small. I thought I had seen the world because I'd been a Mormon missionary in France for 18 months. I knew nothing of the world. I knew nothing of other faiths. I knew nothing of the way other people lived their lives. And I thought that I knew everything. You know, our faith is built on the premise that we have the answers to everything. So, it can be pretty unsettling when you realize that you really don't know anything.You've accepted all of this, and made every choice by this rule book that might not even be right for you.
NR: Wow. You also talked about finding your new community post-Mormonism. What advice would you give to listeners, Mormon or otherwise, who relate to your personal story?
HG: Well, the thing that's been most comforting to me is to know we are all in this together. That we are not alone. We are not bad seeds. We are not lazy learners. God knows us and loves us. And just because we can't make it work doesn't mean we're wrong. And I think that that community of others, you know, of people that have recognized that when living authentically hurts the ones you love the most, they understand that schism and that difficulty in honoring yourself, your duty to self, your duty to family, and your duty to God. And that's really what I think I would say to people, and that I would hope people feel represented and seen by this book and understand that they're not the only ones out there struggling. And that, in the end, duty to self is honoring God. And in many ways is honoring your family. Because you are creating a new path. Like, I'm breaking generations of tradition for my daughters. And I wanted to make sure that I did that with purpose. And that has been powerful.
NR: Amazing. So, we actually just talked about Wild Rose.Ms. Whitney Rose. So, this season she actually removed her name from the Book of Mormon. Have you considered removing your name from the Book of Mormon as well?
HG: Yes. I mean, obviously they got the memo with the book, Bad Mormon. This book alone is the memo that I am no longer adherent to the faith, but I have started the paperwork to have my name removed.
NR: Oh my goodness.
HG: It's a longer process than people would realize. You fill out this paperwork, you get a notary public, and the church can reject it. So, I'm currently still married to my husband in the eyes of the church. They didn't grant me a church divorce. And I'm sure that I'll be able to finalize the paperwork, but it is quite a process. More involved than people would imagine.
NR: Is it too far to ask what would cause a rejection of the request?
HG: Well, the rejection is either you didn't fill out the paperwork correctly, you didn't have a notary public, or they just want you to meet with council members. They want you to meet with your local leaders, your bishop, your state president, a disciplinary council, to find out if there is a way to convince you to stay. You know, we have a full missionary force, I think, of like 60,000 missionaries out in the world converting people. We don't just let you walk away, you know? You signed on the dotted line. There's some paperwork to fill out.
NR: There's a lot of traditions. I mean, you did the welcoming into the church ceremony. That was the process of you becoming a woman.
HG: Yeah. I mean, I've been in the temple dedication ceremonies. And then the rights and rituals of the temple that I talked about in the book, and then the young women's program is just a self-improvement program that girls 12 to 18 do too. I did it all. I mean, I served a mission. I went to BYU. I graduated from BYU with a degree. I graduated from seminary, four years of Sunday school, in school. And I taught and led every class imaginable as a good Mormon. And now I'm writing a book as a bad Mormon [laughs]. So, it's like the complete 180 from the life I was living before.
NR: Okay, but I'm happy to see that it's leading to great success. So, what impact does removing your name from the Book of Mormon have on you, on your daughters, and even on your family? Like, what would the impact be?
HG: I mean, from the way I'm living my life right now, it would just be a matter of paperwork. It wouldn't change the way I'm treated at all. But it's kind of like signing your name on the dotted line. Doctrinally removing your name from the church is a one-way ticket to outer darkness. There is no coming back. I would have to go through the missionary discussions, be re-baptized, meet with high-level authorities before they would grant me permission to come back to church. And it's basically condemning your soul to damnation to remove your name from those records. But it's important to me because I don't want to be counted as a member of an institution that has ideals that I don't believe in. I wouldn't want to be a member of a country club that had the same doctrinal ideals as the Mormon Church[laughs]. So, I certainly do not want to be listed on the records of that institution either.
NR: So, as a fan of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, I do remember some huge drama that actually occurred between you and Lisa Barlow in reference to her referring to you as a “good-time girl.” And so I wanted to know at what point did you come to terms with the fact that this phrase applied to you during your childhood?
HG: I have embraced the title of good-time girl. I think that I was so triggered by Lisa calling me that because I wanted to be a good-time girl from the time I was born. I was a good-time girl at the age of five. I certainly would have been a good-time girl in college had I not risked being ejected from school as a result. We would have been expelled and censured, you know, if we did anything remotely good-time. So, I think that it was like, it pricked my heart because I felt like that's my greatest wish. So don't label me without the experiences, you know?
"I'm breaking generations of tradition for my daughters. And I wanted to make sure that I did that with purpose. And that has been powerful."
NR: I totally get that. You said that you'd be censured at school if you had been a good-time girl. What do you mean by that?
HG: Well, when you're at BYU, you sign an honor code. And that honor code is contingent on your tuition, your classes, where you live. So, if you violated the code and were reported, they could expel you from all of your classes, you'd still be responsible for tuition. You'd be ejected from your student housing and still be responsible for rent, and you would basically be expelled from the institution for your moral behavior. BYU, for us, wasn't a place where you could flash people and not be sent home. I think in the book I say, "Be sent home in a body bag of shame and debt" is what would happen if you were a good-time girl at BYU.
NR: Yes. Okay. When you said that you were in a marriage where you kept one eye closed, I really did like that line. And I just wanted to expand upon that. Like, what did you mean that you were in your marriage but you had one eye closed?
HG: I had one eye closed where I would only focus on the benefits of the marriage, and what it took to keep the marriage together. I wasn't looking at it with full perspective. I wasn't considering how I felt, if it was meeting my needs, if I even was in love. I just was a wife and a mother, and I had a job to do. And so, I just could never look at myself with the true picture of everything. I had one eye closed, and it was just, delusions of grandeur. You know, we just blind ourselves with duty rather than experience.
NR: And so you mentioned in your book that you've started expanding your experiences more. What has been the most impactful new experience that you've had?
HG: I mean, Nicole, sex, of course [laughs]. To realize that the world of sex is beyond just one man, one woman for your entire life, your only sexual experience, your only real—you know, I just, that made me really regret not dating a lot when I was a teenager. Because I would have loved to have had sex with my 18-year-old body [laughs] rather than the 40-year-old out here in the wilderness trying to meet a man. It's just, I see these young kids in college and I just think, “Oh, you go girl. Wear a crop top. Meet a boy. Have a one-night stand.” Like, I just think that is so important to our development as women, you know? And also in our development in how to relate to men.
I only understood a patriarchal, servitude relationship with men. Even though they told me I was an equal partner, even though I believed it, even though the doctrine in the Bible says that we must be equal partners, I knew that, just like in the temple, I had to bow my head and say yes because he was the head of the household, and he was the provider and patriarch of the home. And I think that still bleeds into my relationship with men today. Like, I laugh at their jokes. I eat where they want to eat. I look at the movies they want to watch. I don't know yet how to find my space in a relationship where I feel equal. That's what Mormonism for 45 years will do to you.
NR: Yeah, you talked about some of your upbringing and listening to the Book of Mormon on the audiotape, and I'm so happy to see the way you’ve expanded. So, has any other Housewives on Salt Lake City or in the Housewives universe, have they congratulated you on Bad Mormon?
HG: Oh yeah, the Housewives from everywhere have been so great, so receptive. Marisol from Real Housewives of Miami reached out and said she wants to throw a huge book party in Miami. I'm all for it. She said I could stay at her house, that she'll use her restaurant connections. And I mean, that was like, an endorsement from Marisol made my day. And so, yeah, they have been wonderful and really receptive. And I can't wait for them to read it and get their feedback. Because it is so much more about me becoming a Housewife. And I think that it'll be interesting for them to see if my process of getting cast and all the behind-the-scenes stuff that happened in my life was similar to theirs, you know? We don't get to hear enough about the behind-the-scenes Housewives, like, how it really happens. I wasn't out there going to cold-call auditions all day. I was just in Sunday school and in the kitchen with my kids. So, I think that part will be pretty fascinating for other Housewives to read, how it was the same and different, you know?
"I don't want to be counted as a member of an institution that has ideals that I don't believe in. I wouldn't want to be a member of a country club that had the same doctrinal ideals as the Mormon Church."
NR: Absolutely. I did laugh at your story between how you came to be in Salt Lake City, you know, in terms of with Lisa Barlow. I did think that was funny. I don't think she was so thrilled, yeah?
HG: No. She was not. Lisa will be thrilled, not so much.
NR: Not so much. Great. Will you discuss the reception of your book on the next season of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City?
HG: Nothing's been decided for Season 4. But yeah, I think that it'll be interesting if we talk about it for viewers to see kind of how the public and the community responds to it. I mean, a lot of my neighbors are Mormon. And they've been coming over with the holidays and I had a postcard out with Bad Mormon on it. And I almost went and turned it over. And I thought, there's no way to turn this over and hide this. Like, they're going to see my face on a book at Target. And it's going to have to spur some conversations. That will be terribly uncomfortable, but probably important to have.
NR: Yeah. I think they’ll be good conversations, though. Because I feel like your book was—
HG: Will you come and have them with me? [Laughs]
NR: [Laughs] I feel that it was so respectful. Like, as someone who is listening and experiencing Mormonism through your eyes, I caught exactly what you were putting down. I caught it. I definitely did not say like, "Oh, this is terrible." You know, I didn't feel like it was disrespectful in any way. It's a really good listen. It was a really good listen.
HG: Thanks. Thanks very much.
NR: And you did a really great job.
HG: Thank you. Thank you.
NR: What was your favorite part of the audio recording experience?
HG: First of all, reading the book with headphones on and just kind of enraptured in that studio was, it felt spiritual to me. It felt like a cathedral. And so when I was writing about all of these spiritual memories I had, and experiences, it felt safe to be surrounded by the audio engineers and these soundproof walls, kind of like a womb of sorts. But I loved reading the dialogue of the temple. Because those are memorized rights and rituals and oaths that I've made since I was 21. And it was shocking to me how quickly they came back, and how they just kind of flowed from my lips. And I think recording that part meant the most to me.
NR: So, are you a fan of Audible?
HG: I am a huge fan of Audible. And I feel like Bad Mormon is the perfect book for Audible. Because if you are playing around with the idea that you might be a bad Mormon, you can listen to it in the privacy of your own phone and headphones. No one needs to see the book title anywhere. You know, it's like for the secret bad Mormons, Audible is going to be a golden ticket.
NR: Yes. Private listening. So, I did also see in the listen that you wrote some erotica?
HG: Yes, a little Harlequin. Well, I thought it was erotica, but I guess it's not hardcore erotica. It's just Harlequin romance. Because I've always felt like I was a writer. I got A-pluses on all of my writing in high school and in college, and I majored in humanities, which there was a huge writing portion of that degree. We had to write so many papers. If Bad Mormon is successful, I would love to write a juicy romance novel. And I would love to cast the model for the cover. I have two requests: I would like to pen the book, and I would like to cast the cover. And that's it [laughs]. I don't need to make a dollar.
NR: So, what is next for Heather Gay? You have Beauty Lab. That has been great. I've seen that grow on the show. We have now Bad Mormon. What is next for Heather Gay?
HG: I enjoyed writing this book so much, and I feel like I had so much to cover that I didn't really get to get into the meat of a lot of it. I would like to write a second book that kind of goes into missionary life, write another book that goes into the depth of marriage and divorce. I would like to be a writer. But I am really focused on growing Beauty Lab. We have two locations. It's been really the vehicle to get me even on Housewives to have these opportunities. So, I want to honor my entrepreneurial self, and also this new creative aspect of my life that's come to fruition because of the book Bad Mormon. I would love to be a writer in a beach cottage and just pretend to be Nancy Meyers with the bucket hat and a cream sweater and just, you know, live that dream life.
NR: Well, thank you for all the knowledge that you have bestowed upon me, about Mormonism and about Salt Lake City. I'm rooting for you. I really do think that Bad Mormon was a great listen. Your writing talent does shine through. Again, just thank you so much.
HG: Well, thank you so much. That was fun.
NR: Listeners, you can get Bad Mormon on Audible now.
