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Sam Danis: Hi, I'm Sam, Audible's sci-fi and fantasy editor, and I'm beyond thrilled to be talking with the incomparable Hugo-nominated author Chuck Tingle. He is the prolific writer of so, so many delightful erotica stories and novellas, known, of course, as Tinglers. And recently he's burst onto the horror scene in a really fantastic way with 2023's and one of this year's most anticipated horror novels of the summer, . Thank you so much for being here, Chuck.
CT: Oh, my gosh, thank you for having me. I'm very excited. I have a long history with Audible. You know, as a self-published buckaroo, who not only I started off self-publishing on Amazon but started self-publishing audiobooks on that platform, it has been a part of my life for a very long time. So, it's good to be here.
SD: I have been at Audible for a little over a decade now, and I remember some of your first works coming out around the time I started, and so this feels like a very full-circle moment to me as well.
CT: Yes. I do tend, you know, it's funny, I'm such a private buckaroo. Anyone listening to this cannot see that I am in fact in a pink bag mask and sunglasses right now.
SD: Yep.
CT: Fortunately, I have kind of different buds who like, or legal entities, I have all these ways of keeping my privacy on the back end, as it were. Other buckaroos kind of helping me upload things and things like that. However, I do always think, "Wow, there is someone just sitting in their office who's approving these things and then sees the cover for, you know, coming across their dashboard." And it always gives me a little giggle.
SD: Well, it has delighted us over the years. So, I want to get right into your new book, Bury Your Gays. There is just so much to cover in this novel. It addresses so many themes—authorship, identity, AI, capitalism. But primarily Bury Your Gays takes a look at the entertainment industry and how it has treated queer characters, creators, and queer audiences. I'm so curious, where did this idea originate and why was it important for you to tell this story?
CT: Well, the way that I write, the planning stage goes on a long time for me. I generally like to take a little trot up the hill every morning, a little hike. About an hour pretty much every morning. And I do a lot of my writing there, not on pen and paper or anything. I guess a few little guided posts in my Notes app. But generally it is all in my head. And when I think of an idea where I think, "Okay, this is good enough to write," it is when a sort of clever idea, because I always have a few high-concept ideas tumbling around in my head, three or four, thinking, "Okay, those are pretty good." And for me to actually sit down and say, "This is the one I'm going to write," it has to crash into a personal feeling that I have at the time.
"I have 'Love is real' written across my forehead for a reason...we are driving towards love and understanding and acceptance for all buckaroos, despite the fact that there are many hiccups along the way."
And so, interestingly, Bury Your Gays, the concept, I've kind of had for a while, but what really set me off to write it was that it crashed into kind of personal feelings that I could express. It is very autobiographical in the sense of just talking about what it is like to be a queer artist. I wear this mask and all these things, but outside of it, as a bisexual buckaroo, as an autistic buckaroo who very much can mask very well, I do not appear to really be parts of these communities on the outside. And so a lot of this book was about me grappling with "what does it mean to be a queer artist, a prominent queer artist, that never really has to talk about their sexuality or these unique parts of themselves when they are not creating this art? And what are the ethics of that? Where do you sit?" And so Misha, the main character of Bury Your Gays, that's kind of Misha's arc. And I would say I was very much grappling with this arc and going through this arc as I wrote the book. So, as universal as it is, I would say the reason I wrote it is kind of personal reasons.
SD: That's really interesting. Yeah, it felt like there was a lot of personal connection coming through there. And one thread throughout your work has always been representation, from being on the neurodiversity spectrum to the queer community. In particular there's a really great asexual character in this novel that I won't spoil for anyone, but she has a great arc. I'm also a bisexual buckaroo.
CT: Yes, congratulations.
SD: [Laughs]. Thank you.
CT: A high-five through the screen.
SD: Yeah, it's a good club. But I know I've struggled with not seeing myself represented in some of my favorite genres, especially when I first started digging into the classics of sci-fi, fantasy, horror. Do you think on the whole it's getting better across media? Where do you see our biggest misses and opportunities?
CT: You know, I actually do. I'm a very optimistic buckaroo, across all boards. The inertia of all things I think pulls us towards love. That is I think the natural state of not just humanity but the universe. And many will balk when I say that, and we could do an eight-podcast arc of me explaining why I feel that way. But I have "Love is real" written across my forehead for a reason. I do think that love exists on this timeline, and that that fact alone, we are driving towards love and understanding and acceptance for all buckaroos, despite the fact that there are many hiccups along the way. So, for me personally, I do see it getting better.
And I think the hardest part of all this is that artistic kind of acceptance and [that] the ability to create this media with representation is tied to money. It's tied to capitalism. And that is kind of what Bury Your Gays is about. People ask, "What's the best way to support this artist?" or whatever. And honestly, it's as simple as buying their book or getting it from the library, or their audiobook. Or if it's a musician, going to their concert or spending money on their record or whatever. When I put it like that, it sounds very quaint. And everyone says, "Well, of course I'll buy a vinyl record. I'll buy a T-shirt. I'll buy a book. I'll buy a comic." But as you zoom out on that, the implications kind of change and grow. So, there is this linking between the two that, honestly, I don't know who has the best answer for it, but definitely grappling with that question is what Bury Your Gays is also about.
SD: Yeah, so for listeners, right off the bat, not a spoiler, your character, Misha Byrne, he's working on his show and he has these two characters that have been kind of, [it’s] heavily hinted, romantically interested for a long time, but he's getting pressure from the executives to go ahead and kill them off.
CT: Yes. Yes. To answer your question, too, what you were saying about “where is it now and where is it going” in kind of queer acceptance and recognition, it was interesting to write that because some of the parts, wow, would someone really be pressured to kill off the gay characters? There's two sides to that. There's other kind of networks and shows or different things where someone might be pressured to keep the gay characters or make more of them. You know, the wrapping up in finances is so kind of difficult. And essentially taking queer creators and queer artists and instead of saying, "What is in your heart?" saying, you know, "What's going to make the most money?" I think that's kind of the scariest part and the crux of all of these things.
SD: Yeah, it's a big challenge to grapple with, the importance of representation versus the drive of business. To get into the audio a little bit, this is such a cool production. It's a multicast, but in a very unique way. So, André Santana, who previously performed your novella Straight, who I love—he's new to me but he's fantastic.
CT: Incredible. So good.
SD: Yeah, so he's basically the main narrator of the story, he's the voice of your main character, Misha. But then you've also got parts from Mara Wilson, who performed Camp Damascus, and then Georgia Bird, who's performed several of your Tinglers, and a slew of cameos from other sci-fi, fantasy, horror writers, like Charlie Jane Anders, Stephen Graham Jones, TJ Klune. I'm just so curious how this production came to be.
CT: Oh, wow, yes. I mean, it is so fun. So, the book is written in kind of three perspectives. There's first-person present, which that's kind of my natural writing. I do all my books in first-person. And then there's first-person past for certain chapters. And then there's screenplay formatting in certain sections. And there is actually a point to that in the text of the book that is important to the plot. It's not just a stylistic thing. I think buckaroos will realize eventually why these are being done. And it's integral to the story. So, you think, “Okay, when we're going to move this to audiobooks, if the text and the formatting is an integral part of the story, how are we going to do that in audiobook?” So that kind of opens it to some creative choices.
"I can hyper focus on writing, but as far as reading goes, it's very hard for me to get through a page without my mind starting to wander... I have found that audiobooks are just a game-changer for me. I can lock in with an audiobook so, so much deeper."
And I just thought it would be, obviously, if we had these scripts, let's do radio dramas. That's kind of the best way to translate it. Everyone was very excited. We knew there was going to be all the same sound effects and fun things that normally are in radio dramas. And then for casting, I've got a lot of buds in the author community, and I thought, "Well, so much of this book is kind of meta, self-referential, fourth-wall-breaking, kind of looking at itself. How fun would it be if, instead of kind of casting it with who you would think, if we cast it with other authors? Other horror creators generally?" So, most of the cast is other authors who are just kind of buds of Chuck. There were a few that, you know, CJ Leede is a very good bud of mine, and I thought, "Oh, you are gonna ..." I don't want to give away who CJ plays. But I had these buckaroos in my life that I thought, "Oh, you're going to be kind of perfect for this role, so let's see what happens." And it turned out very, very well.
SD: It feels appropriately meta to cast your friends in these roles that you created. Very cool. It adds a special touch, I think, and makes you feel a little more immersed in the story. I believe you've mentioned that you are an audiobook listener. I'd love to hear what you enjoy about audio. What's important to you when it comes to a narrator?
CT: Oh, gosh, so much. Through most of my life, my artistic influences are not writers. I know you're not supposed to say that, but I break a lot of rules. If I was to list my top five influences, none of them would be writers. They are visual artists, directors, musicians, performance artists, different things like that. And so I was not a huge reader, and honestly, as an autistic buckaroo,I can hyper focus on writing, but as far as reading goes, it's very hard for me to get through a page without my mind starting to wander off about what I would do if I was writing the story.That’s how much of a dang creator brain that I have.And I have found that audiobooks are just a game-changer for me. I can lock in with an audiobook so, so much deeper. And I really think it's just, it's almost got to be a brain chemistry thing, of some buckaroos just can lock in with auditory over reading the words with their eyes. And it has really completely changed things for me.
SD: That's awesome. Did you have a role in selecting your narrators, like AndréSantana and Mara Wilson? And what did you see in them?
CT: Well, as a self-published buckaroo moving to one of the big five publishers—I'm Tor Nightfire, but that is Macmillan. So, you kind of hear horror stories about, “Oh, well, you're giving up so much, you're definitely not going to choose your book title or your cover or your narrator.” That is probably the case many times. Old Chuck generally kicks open the door and says, "Here's how it's gonna be." And I am allowed to do that. I pick everything from top to bottom. And I do, to the credit of Nightfire, specifically, I do think that they have the ability maybe legally with whatever contract to override that, but they let me, they trust me. They will generally send some ideas for narrators and then I pick them.
André was so good at Straight that I thought, “Let's bring this buckaroo back.” Mara Wilson narrates Camp Damascus, my previous book. That is also on Audible. I kind of like having a voice for the Tinglers. So, I will probably go back to these buckaroos in future books when I think, "Oh, this narrator, they would fit with this." I think it's fun to have your buds, like this cast of buds that is the tone of your writing.
SD: Yeah, I love it. Mara Wilson was pitch-perfect for Camp Damascus.
CT: Yes.
SD: And André, like I said, new favorite.
CT: Pretty amazing, yes.
SD: Yeah, he's fantastic. So, getting into the publishing a little bit, you have been self-publishing for many years now. So, I'm so curious, you've been writing in the erotica space for such a long time. How long have these horror stories been percolating in your head, and what made you decide to take that leap into mainstream publishing?
CT: So, I have been an artist for a very long time. As this masked buckaroo, no one knows much about myself. But I've kind of started to slowly reveal more, and I can say that I have been a artist and a creator for most of my life, outside of what buckaroos know from the Tinglers and all this. And so I have always been drawn towards transgressive art, whether that was kind of like sexual art with erotica and romance, or horror, which I would say is transgressive in like violent ways or frightful ways. I just have always thought being able to use the taboo to kind of play around in and as a sort of tool in your narratives and in your message is very exciting. And very fun. So, I just have always lived there.
I think that publishing my erotica, because my sensibilities are so unique, a lot of buckaroos think of it as comedy. And it is totally fine for buds to laugh at. I lean into that a lot and I also recognize that's why I am as popular as I am. I'm not going to dang look down my nose at it. But I will also openly say that, you know, from my perspective, I see it more as magical realism or kind of fantastical erotica. I am very sincere about it, and it's not really a joke. There are jokes in it, but to me it's very sincere. I think I'm a pretty funny buckaroo, but that's not where my heart is. My heart is in kind of this transgressive art, especially horror.
I think that where things have really taken off, as they tend to do as artists, is when you follow your heart. And like I said, my heart has always been in horror. So, I thought, "I'm going to write a horror novel and I'm going to use the same themes that I do in my erotica, the same kind of proving that love is real.” You know, just to have kind of a heart-filled and positive bent, and take these messages and very message-focused art and see what happens with horror. And it has resonated just as much as my erotica, in a totally different way. So, that's great. I mean, it really is an example of just writing where your heart takes you, I think.
SD: Yeah, it's interesting that you are kind of thinking of the comedy angle, because I feel like horror does lend itself well to comedic moments. There's so much tension that sometimes you just—
CT: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. They function in a similar way. And like I said, Tinglers are not written as jokes, but I understand that I am good at being funny within them and I understand humor. And translating that to horror, you are absolutely correct, is the same sort of tension and release. It's the same kind of side mission of a sort of bodily reaction. There's laughter with comedy. Also, erotica, there's arousal. And then horror, there's fear. So, you're kind of doing these interesting side missions along with your sort of three-act structure. I guess I've been good at that. And you see this in horror, someone like Jordan Peele coming from the world of comedy. The reason that he is so good at horror now, I think, honestly, is because those are the same skill sets. If you can make a comedy sketch, then I think that you can understand a horror scene.
SD: Yeah, for sure. I've heard you describe erotica, horror, as those genres that really affect the body. I love that idea. It's such a visceral reaction you get to these stories. And your thinking kind of gets to come in in a very interesting way.
CT: Yes, absolutely.
SD: So, Bury Your Gays, talking about horror and your influences, it certainly pays homage to a lot of supernatural and horror TV shows and movies that have come before it, so I spotted a lot of X-Files, Supernatural, especially in the show Travelers, which is Misha Byrne's show. What other pieces of pop culture for you kind of provided inspiration as you worked on this story?
CT: I think looking back and writing this, you don't realize how much time changes things until you're kind of really looking at it through a lens, and especially a creative lens, and you're trying to get everything right. I just did not realize how much I think television culture, especially, has changed. Now we do six to 10 episodes all coming out at the same time. And that to the "How are we going to fill a season with 23 episodes in this sort of procedural show?" And I really do, you already said it, but the X-Files was such a blueprint for that. I mean, even the terminology of like "Monster of the Week” and things like that, that's like deep X-Files forum, like '90s forums, of the mythology episode and then the Monster of the Week episode.
"I have always been drawn towards transgressive art...I just have always thought being able to use the taboo to kind of play around in and as a sort of tool in your narratives and in your message is very exciting. And very fun."
Diving in and pulling out things from kind of that era of media was really my goal. Because there's kind of a subtlety to them. Like I said, even using the phrase Monster of the Week, it's such a strange way of looking at a program. You wouldn't need that now. There's six episodes and they all come out the same day. There's so much we can pull apart from that. And so finding those little phrases or interesting things that have changed—now, granted, Bury Your Gays takes place now, but there are flashbacks to the late '90s, early aughts. I would say that's generally when it changed, with kind of like streaming. And proliferation of the internet really is kind of the big, just where everything changed.
But drawing on those moments from that time, I think regardless of when it is, when the show is set, kind of gives it this nostalgic tone. So that's what I was going for, was kind of bathing it in a sort of sense of nostalgia no matter what time period the actual text is or what part you're reading.
SD: Yeah, I can tell you had a lot of fun writing this. So, getting into the horror a little bit more, you have these monsters or antagonists in the story that create such a looming sense of dread throughout. It reminded me in ways a little bit of the horror movie It Follows, that just kind of sense of that creeping entity. So, without giving away too much, I think there are very real connections between those antagonists and then personal trauma in Bury Your Gays. And there was a little bit of a similar thread in Camp Damascus as well. Why do you feel like horror is such a perfect vehicle for exploring these themes?
CT: Yes, it's funny because I will give a truncated answer here, but I would say my answer is the, you know, 80,000-word text of Bury Your Gays is essentially, that is my answer to that question. Horror is important and art in general, but it's essentially like exercise. I think there's a lot of things in life that some buckaroos—let's break it down by genre—will just kind of not connect with because, let's say, why would you want to feel that way? You can say it with horror, like, "Why would you want to feel scared? I don't like that feeling, get it away." You can do it with punk or hardcore music with dissonant chords and different things. You can do it with food. You can do it with a spicy food and say, "Why would you want to feel that, all that spice in your mouth? That's an unpleasant feeling."
And I think all of these things in human experience, those who enjoy them really, it's a form of exercise, just the same way that if you go on a run, a dang half-marathon—I'm saying half-marathon because running a marathon would hurt me either way. I'll say half-marathon for my example.
SD: Me too.
CT: But then you run that, and you don't feel great in a very literal sense, but you also do feel amazing. You finish it, and there's a reason that you do that. Your body enjoys kind of putting that pressure and testing it and doing these things. So, I think we can understand it through exercise, and if you kind of start to think of all these different things as sort of like a mental or therapeutic exercise, that's kind of why these genres work. And why they're good, why it's healthy to sometimes test your fears and say, "Okay, what is it here that was hard to get through?" And maybe next time it'll be a little easier and all these different things. That's kind of the way I look at it, it's sort of like the training of the experience of life in these different kinds of formats.
SD: Yeah, it's kind of the perfect vehicle for confronting uncomfortable feelings like trauma.
CT: It's very therapeutic, and you're right, it's a vehicle to confront things in a safe way. It's such an important part of the human experience, it's unfortunate that these things are often kind of very maligned. We are here to live, to test, to test our boundaries of experience. And what better than to find these safe ways of doing it? I think horror does that.
SD: For sure. So, keeping on the theme of horror, in contrast to its title, Bury Your Gays, which of course speaks to the tradition of trauma and killing off queer characters, this novel, ultimately, I think really celebrates queer joy and visibility and really shows what can happen when we try to stifle that. I think you can say the same about Camp Damascus, and I would ultimately, even though they're horror, I would call both of these novels hopeful in the end.
CT: Yes, I agree. Yes.
SD: Why is that important to you?
CT: What's interesting about it is, I'm so mission-oriented. Another thing that I will say that you're never supposed to say as a writer. There's an argument about what's, you know, in English classes across the country, of what drives your story? Is it characters or is it plot? And you're supposed to say characters. That's the lesson that everyone's supposed to learn when they walk out of English 101. And to me it's actually neither. It's message. I am writing with a purpose of “Here is my gift to you. I have something that I want to say to you.” And when I write, that is my focus. I would say second is characters and then third is plot.
"It's like my resting state is writing. That's what I'm doing when I'm napping, if that makes sense. It's like sharks who just are constantly swimming."
And what's strange is that despite being so mission-oriented, this story really just kind of ends up being personal. I knew what my mission was, but at the end of the day every choice that I made was because of what it means to me and that I'm generally a hopeful person, so my art ends up that way. It's not like I think, "Well, my mission is going to be to create this uplifting piece." It's just that I believe everything that I say, and what I believe in is hope. I don't have to force it because it's just kind of there.
SD: And I think there's something really satisfying, too, about seeing that bit of redemption, especially in such a scary or fraught story.
CT: Yes. I think that's probably why buckaroos connect with my work so much, is I think that it's really great to want to write cathartic, redeeming stories. That is what I do. And I just genuinely think when you can do that in a way that you actually personally believe it, that's where the real power is. When you can do that sincerely. And so I think that this is an example of that, and it seems to be resonating because of that, which feels great. I mean, thank you to all the buckaroos who like it so far.
SD: Yeah. So, bringing me to kind of my last question, we have been talking a little bit about writing process. You've got a full slate now. You've got your Tinglers, which you've talked in the past about how fast of a writer you are and how quickly you can put those out. And now you have these full-length traditionally published horror novels. I'm so curious how that's kind of changed your writing process or repertoire. Is it a tough balance?
CT: I write so much, it is my natural state. I am making no qualms about how lucky I am that as an autistic buckaroo, you know, that can be a very difficult thing. And it has been nothing but a boon for me. It is a joy. Because my hyper focus is creation.It's like my resting state is writing. That's what I'm doing when I'm napping, if that makes sense. It's like sharks who just are constantly swimming. When their body is at rest, it's moving through the water. That works to my advantage. It is certainly a lot for anyone to do, and I definitely need to like check in with myself and create a healthy balance. But they do fulfill two very different things. I think that my erotica, I think of it as punk rock art in the sense that it is intentionally kind of, you know, it feels like it was made in 24 hours, because it was!
And it's kind of my way of processing an idea of the day, if that makes sense. I wake up, I have a feeling, whether it's something in the news or some other thing, and then I can process it and then, thanks to self-publishing, it can be out the next day, which is in itself kind of an entirely new art form and kind of interesting. And the contract that I have with Tor Nightfire is that I can do as much of that as I want, and then as long as I provide them horror novels, it'll be great. So, I kind of just go back and forth between the two and get to kind of follow my heart where it takes me.
I will say that I try not to talk too much about things that have not come out yet, it’s kind of part of my way. I will say there will be more Tingle-verse horror novels. In my mysterious way I will say I could possibly be farther ahead on them than many would know. I tend to write far enough ahead that I can reference my work before it comes out. So, like, in Camp Damascus, there's quite a few references to Bury Your Gays, actually.
SD: And vice versa.
CT: Yes. Bury Your Gays references Camp Damascus as well, and so it's nice that I know the stories I will write in the future fast enough, or have already kind of written versions of them, that I can weave a web. I guess I will give the exclusive here, I don't think I've mentioned this before, but the Tingle-verse horror novel that will come out after Bury Your Gays is actually very strongly referenced in Camp Damascus.
SD: Oh, wow.
CT: I was including things about the next book in Camp Damascus. There's a big web being woven, and that's part of the fun as well. And you can kind of only do that when you write as much as I do and as fast as I do.
SD: That's fantastic. I'll have to go back and relisten to Camp Damascus now. Chuck, it's been an absolute delight speaking with you. You're incredibly punk rock. I loved this novel. I can't wait for others to listen to it and talk about it with folks.I think it's going to be the perfect thing to scare you silly this summer while, of course, proving love is real. Audible listeners, you can find Bury Your Gays, Camp Damascus, and tons of Tinglers right here on Audible. Thank you again, Chuck.
