Discover the real-world lessons of co-leadership in this two-part conversation with Americans for the Arts’ interim Co-CEOs, Suzy Delvalle and Jamie Bennett.

Recorded at the start and end of their nine-month shared leadership journey, host Tim Cynova explores how they divided responsibilities, built trust, navigated challenges, and embraced the benefits of having two leaders at the helm. From the decision to take the roles together, to the cultural shifts and surprises along the way, this episode offers candid insights for executives, boards, and organizations exploring interim leadership, shared power, and values-driven change.

We explore:

• How the co-leadership arrangement came together and why neither would have said yes without the other
• Structuring responsibilities, building trust, and navigating shared decision-making in a high-profile national nonprofit
• The benefits—and surprises—of having two leaders instead of one, both internally and externally
• How interim roles can create space for experimentation, transparency, and cultural change
• Lessons for boards, staff, and leaders considering co-leadership or shared power models

Part One captures Suzy and Jamie’s hopes, plans, and questions as they begin. Part Two—where Tim is joined by podcasting’s favorite co-host Lauren Ruffin—unpacks what worked, what didn’t, and what they wish they’d had time to do.

Whether you’re curious about co-leadership, fascinated by interim executive roles, or wondering how to lead in turbulent times, this episode offers an honest, behind-the-scenes look at shared leadership in practice.

Listen in and discover: How two leaders, one job, and a finite timeline reshaped an organization’s transition—and their own perspectives on leadership.

Highlights:

• 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Episode Origins
• 00:56 Meet the Interim Co-CEOs
• 02:09 The Co-Leadership Journey Begins
• 04:41 Structuring the Co-Leadership
• 06:17 Intentional Interim Ministry
• 08:06 Challenges and Opportunities
• 10:23 Shared Leadership Dynamics
• 14:51 Project Management and Organizational Goals
• 17:39 Reflecting on Interim Leadership
• 25:41 Future Vision and Organizational Evolution
• 33:34 Part Two: Reflecting on the Journey
• 35:42 Entering the Interim Role
• 36:35 Navigating Co-CEO Dynamics
• 37:36 Building Trust with Staff
• 39:13 Reflections on Co-Leadership
• 41:26 Challenges and Benefits of Shared Leadership
• 43:18 Interim Leadership Insights
• 45:23 Future of Leadership Models
• 48:13 Final Thoughts and Reflections

BIOS

ABOUT SUZY DELVALLE

Suzy is a seasoned advisor who has leveraged her expertise to drive strategic growth and stability in arts organizations, most recently through interim leadership roles at A Blade of Grass, Artadia, Socrates Sculpture Park, and United States Artists. With a proven track record of success, she previously led Creative Capital and was one of the architects of Artists Relief, a $25 million initiative that provided emergency support to artists during the COVID-19 pandemic. She was the founding executive director of The Sugar Hill Children’s Museum of Art and Storytelling following tenures at El Museo del Barrio and American Composers Orchestra.

ABOUT JAMIE...

In this on-location episode, host Tim Cynova visits Socrates Sculpture Park, a creative haven on along New York City’s East River. Once a landfill, Socrates is now a vibrant public space where artists and community members come together to imagine what’s possible. Co-Directors Katie Dixon and Shaun Leonardo join Tim to reflect on the park’s origins, its role in a rapidly changing neighborhood, and the creative and civic experiments it cultivates every day.

Together, they explore what it means to lead an arts organization in uncertain times, how their version of co-leadership works in practice, and why places like Socrates are essential. From the artist-led programming to the practicalities of funding, from personal memories to the future vision for the park, this wide-ranging conversation is a thoughtful reminder of the value of places that are not just made for community, but by and with community.

“[Places like Socrates] are not an extra, or an added-good, or a nice-but-not-necessary. They are absolutely critical to a well-functioning society and to the ability of our neighbors, our fellow New Yorkers, our fellow citizens, to have the space to interact, to practice being human together… and to be able to fail at that sometimes. That requires space, and it requires care, and it requires a kind of attention that is important and necessary, and not to be taken for granted.” —Katie Dixon

“Socrates—as an arts institution and a public park—is the most democratic experiment that I've ever come to know because of our responsibility to community. Therefore, all the creative and public programming offerings that we make to our constituencies offers such a myriad of entry points to being here. I want to emphasize this idea of being the experiment is in not only the experience of art, but what art catalyzes in regards to a sense of belonging. Whether you're coming here for kayaking, the gardens, to walk your dog, to be part of some of the sculpture workshops, performances, etc., the art is unfolding whether you're conscious of it or not.” —Shaun Leonardo

• Personal Histories and Inspirations (02:34)
• The Evolution of Socrates Sculpture Park (05:12)
• Community Engagement and Programming (08:01)
• The Importance of Cultural Nonprofits (10:06)
• Navigating Uncertainty and Sustaining Community Spaces (14:23)
• The Co-Directorship Model (27:27)
• Conclusion and Reflections (35:24)

• “Cultural nonprofits are the unsung stewards of NYC: Why these organizations deserve our support.” by Katie Dixon & Shaun Leonardo
• Socrates Sculpture Park
• Mark di Suvero
• Château le Woof

Katie Dixon, Co-Director, Socrates Sculpture Park

With over two decades of experience working at the intersection of the arts, architecture, and urban planning, Katie Dixon has created cross-sector partnerships and new artist-led programming for a broad range of arts, culture and civic organizations. Her work is based in collaborative research and centers consensus-building and cooperation among many different publics, institutions, government agencies and funders.

From 2014 to 2021, as the CEO of Powerhouse Arts, Dixon established the vision for a new artist-led institution and led the...

In this episode of Work Shouldn’t Suck, host Tim Cynova connects with the ever-awesome Shannon Litzenberger to explore the intersections of democracy, creative practice, and collective thriving. Together, they dive into how artistic methodologies can expand leadership frameworks and help shape more caring, equitable communities.

In this episode:

• How creative practice informs leadership and systems change
• The importance of mutual care and collective thriving
• Sensory attunement, attentional awareness, and improvisational leadership
• Disrupting default systems and embracing world-making as a practice

Fresh from the national tour of her production World After Dark and moments away from presenting at a social theory, politics, and the arts conference in Spain, Shannon shares insights on how creative practice can serve as a catalyst for personal and societal transformation. They discuss the power of mutual care, the significance of sensory attunement, and the need to reimagine default patterns in both the workplace and society.

This episode also touches on the enduring influence of Shannon’s friendship and collaboration with the late Diane Ragsdale, their shared exploration of aesthetics and embodiment, and their co-authored chapter in Democracy as Creative Practice. Plus, hear how Shannon is bringing her artistic ethos into unexpected spaces—like reimagining an academic panel as an improvisational score.

Tune in for a conversation packed with practical wisdom, unexpected insights, and a reminder that thriving workplaces and thriving communities are built on mutual care, relational leadership, and a willingness to embrace the unfamiliar.

Quotables

“This is where I find a lot of fertile ground for transformation, and why I feel it's so important for creative practice methodologies to gain purchase in this conversation around change, because they're practice-based, and practice is how we change habits. We can have lots of fruitful conversations that evoke ways of knowing that we understand, but to actually become something different than what we've already been conditioned to be requires practice, not just a kind of conceptual knowing.” – Shannon Litzenberger

“ Practice is the pathway to change. If you want to be able to expand your repertoire of being and doing, you have to practice things that are unfamiliar.” – Shannon Litzenberger

“Identity is a very powerful organizing construct in society. The pandemic especially I think really highlighted identity significantly as an organizing structure, as a way of revealing structural harms and inequities. It also started to deepen the way that we are relating in these identity-based affinity groups, and in a sense, this is a challenge when it comes to developing practices that are supportive of a pluralistic democracy. Because, in a pluralistic democracy, we need to develop an ability to be together in ways that are not so strictly codified that we are all twisting ourselves in a knot to try to belong, that actually we need to be able to embrace differences within a dynamic whole in order to work well and co-create well together.” – Shannon Litzenberger

• Values in Creative Practice (02:14)
• Exploring “World After Dark” (04:08)
• Leadership and Collective Action (09:32)
• Navigating Post-Pandemic Challenges (11:10)
• Creative Practice in Organizations (17:43)
• Improvisational Leadership (27:09)
• Collaboration with Diane Ragsdale (35:33)
• Improvisational Score as Panel Discussion (42:29)
• Final Thoughts and Reflections (45:52)

• Shannon's Substack