Drew Perkins talks with David Geary, a cognitive developmental and evolutionary psychologist and Curator's Professor in the Department of Psychological Sciences at the University of Missouri. They dive into the foundations of evolutionary educational psychology, exploring how our evolutionary history shapes the way we learn today and why certain types of knowledge are fundamentally more difficult to acquire than others.

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The core of the conversation centers on Geary's groundbreaking distinction between biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge. Primary knowledge includes skills like spoken language, social navigation, and basic folk physics, which humans have evolved to acquire effortlessly and instinctively. In contrast, secondary knowledge—such as reading, writing, and advanced mathematics—is a recent cultural invention that requires explicit instruction and sustained effort because our brains are not "wired" for it by default.

Drew and David discuss the implications of this framework for modern classrooms, particularly why "discovery-based" learning models often struggle with secondary knowledge. Geary explains that while children naturally "play" to develop primary skills, the acquisition of secondary knowledge necessitates a different instructional architecture that respects the limits of working memory and the necessity of direct guidance.

Finally, they explore the role of motivation and interest in learning. Geary highlights that while students are naturally motivated to learn primary skills, teachers must often "engineer" interest for secondary knowledge. The episode concludes with reflections on the "curse of knowledge" for experts and how an evolutionary lens can help educators better understand the struggle their students face when encountering abstract, non-intuitive academic content.

• [00:04:12] Introduction to David Geary – Exploring his background in developmental and evolutionary psychology.
• [00:08:45] Defining Biologically Primary Knowledge – The skills we are born to learn, from language to social intuition.
• [00:12:30] Defining Biologically Secondary Knowledge – Why reading, writing, and math are "unnatural" and require schools.
• [00:18:15] The Role of Play – Distinguishing between play as a primary learning mechanism and its limitations for academic subjects.
• [00:25:50] Working Memory and Cognitive Load – How secondary knowledge strains our evolved cognitive architecture.
• [00:33:10] The Problem with Discovery Learning – Why students cannot simply "instinctively" find their way to complex secondary truths.
• [00:41:45] Engineering Interest – Strategies for motivating students to engage with content they aren't evolutionarily predisposed to care about.
• [00:52:20] The "Curse of Knowledge" – Why experts struggle to remember what it's like to be a novice learner.
• [01:05:30] Evolutionary Perspectives on Sex Differences – A brief look at Geary's research on developmental variations.
• [01:14:15] Closing Remarks – Where to find more of David Geary's work and upcoming publications.

Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes.

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Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.

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The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases.

Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents.

• [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens.
• [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program.
• [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students.
• [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases.
• [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality.
• [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators.
• [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction.
• [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration.
• [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models.
• [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency.
• [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching.

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Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.

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The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking.

A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes.

Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge.

• [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation.
• [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days.
• [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools.
• [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process.
• [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck.
• [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes.
• [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls.
• [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques.
• [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action.
• [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design.
• [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".