Dr. Nathan Jacobs sits down with Fr. Joseph Lucas to discuss penal substitution atonement. The discussion examines the claim that penal substitution is the biblical and historic view of the atonement. Drawing on the writings of Cyril of Alexandria and other early Christian sources, Fr. Joseph Lucas explains how the Church Fathers understood sacrifice, sin, and the work of Christ very differently from later Western models.

The discussion looks at the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, typology, and the meaning of Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension. The result is a picture of atonement centered on purification, victory over death, and the transformation of human nature—not a transfer of punishment.

This conversation also explores how differences in biblical interpretation led to very different conclusions about what the Cross accomplishes.

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Bio: Archpriest Joseph Lucas is an Orthodox Christian priest, theological scholar, college professor, and practical philosopher. He received his PhD in Theology at Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen (Netherlands) and his MDiv with Distinction in Church History and Patristics at St Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary (Pennsylvania). He specializes in research pertaining to patristic exegesis and historical theology.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/lt40zf4KpV8

Fr. Joseph’s parish in Miami: https://www.oca.org/clergy/Joseph-Lucas/

- His blog, Prudence and Piety: https://prudenceandpiety.com/

- His parish podcast, Apostolic Tradition: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQlnsUX0xxfCfBWmQmrrQ8w

- Fr. Joseph Lucas’ book: How to Read the Holy Fathers: A Guide for Orthodox Christians: https://store.ancientfaith.com/how-to-read-the-holy-fathers-a-guide-for-orthodox-christians/

- Another episode Dr. Jacobs and Fr. Lucas did together: https://youtu.be/3Yt5fItpy7U?si=0BRySP8VEQgv-9I9

Mentioned:

- East Vs. West (Part 1) - Dr. Nathan Jacobs, Orthodox Miami: https://youtu.be/kVGkrtzx1DY?si=hmCwdH5YTN3hcpQn

- Fr. Joseph’s appearance on The Symbolic World: https://youtu.be/0FuO88QVlN0?si=8UmUZF4Cc5ZmHD1X

- Fr. John Behr’s book, The Case Against Diodore and Theodore: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Diodore-Theodore-Oxford-Christian/dp/0198800215

Dr. Nathan’s series on penal substitution:

Part 1: https://youtu.be/WHx21LQncFI?si=Y-WaG636sATOZ03S

Part 2: https://youtu.be/-MXLs6J2JBw?si=XxHHcXmqnjhx4G95

Timestamps:

00:00 - Coming up

00:18 - Start

01:27 - Introduction

03:11 - Fr. Joseph's work

05:24 - What is penal substitution atonement?

07:41 - Fr. Lucas' background

13:44 - Approaching St. Cyril of Alexandria on atonement

18:00 - St. Cyril's influences

23:09 - An incorrect exegesis

25:08 - The Father looking away from the Son

34:04 - Origen

35:18 - Christ acting in the Old Testament

39:39 - A discussion on the term sin

56:58 - Passover

01:00:28 - Substitution

01:03:20 - Presuppositions: early vs modern Christians

01:11:31 - Assuming our nature

01:15:19 - The blameless passions

01:24:35 - Testing vs temptation

01:29:59 - Justification and vindication

01:46:33 - Salvation is a mystery

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This is part 3 of 3 talks by Dr. Nathan Jacobs about the "nones", the religiously unaffiliated, a group that has grown dramatically over the past two decades and about which Dr. Jacobs has done research, culminating into the documentary called Becoming Truly Human.Watch part 1: https://youtu.be/vun_XtxDt5E?si=8uHdje7CpTHNAa8v Watch part 2: https://youtu.be/XPlTK33zmcs?si=sY32QQCva2QGPpCK In this talk, Dr. Nathan A. Jacobs discusses how we, as believers, can engage the “nones” and “dones”. He explains why the religiously unaffiliated don't talk about religion, and argues that the real crisis isn’t simply atheism, but disillusionment and cultural hypnosis. A major threat to our faith, as with so many aspects of human life, is our technology and the sense it can create of being a cognitive minority. How can we talk about religion with people who are disaffiliated? How can we help families and members of our own church to prevent disillusionment?Do you want to watch the Becoming Truly Human documentary? Watch it along with other exclusive content on Jacobs Premium. Use code: LEWIS to get a discount on the highest tier of support: https://www.thenathanjacobspodcast.com/

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/5_LcdMbopjgTimestamps:00:00 - Preview01:43 - Introduction to this series01:50 - Start of talk02:32 - The secret believer05:59 - A safe space to talk08:26 - Nones rarely talk about religion11:51 - Ask them about their journey16:45 - Addressing their presuppositions22:43 - Taste and see25:48 - The dones27:50 - Keeping Orthodox folks from leaving the church29:27 - A reading from Narnia39:28 - A cognitive minority43:56 - Digital experience48:24 - Approaching research about the dones55:54 - Q&A and discussion56:16 - Q: On resources58:45 - Q: Why does the Orthodox also produce nones and dones?01:07:23 - Q: Why people leave church despite believing01:12:37 - Q: Open to differences01:15:43 - Q: Humility and listening01:16:41 - Q: Catechesis01:19:39 - Q: Moral problems with the Bible======================================All the links:The Theological Letters Substack: https://nathanajacobs.substack.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thenathanjacobspodcastX: https://x.com/NathanJacobsPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nathanandrewjacobsAcademia: https://vanderbilt.academia.edu/NathanAJacobsListen and please review the podcast elsewhere:Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0hSskUtCwDT40uFbqTk3QSApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nathan-jacobs-podcast

This is part 2 of 3 talks by Dr. Nathan Jacobs about the "nones", the religiously unaffiliated, a group that has grown dramatically over the past two decades.

In this talk, Nathan Jacobs argues that many who leave are not rejecting God, per se, but a particular vision of God shaped by Western theological developments. Exploring themes like grace, freedom, divine goodness, fatalism, and anthropology, he contrasts key Western trajectories with the vision of the Eastern Church Fathers. The result is a compelling case that Orthodoxy does not suppress the moral and spiritual intuitions of today’s seekers — it fulfills them.

Watch part 1: The Modern Religious Debate Lost Its Audience: https://youtu.be/vun_XtxDt5E

Contribute to the East West Lecture Series fundraiser: http://theeastwestseries.com/

Do you want to watch the Becoming Truly Human documentary? Watch it along with other exclusive content on Jacobs Premium. Use code: LEWIS to get a discount: https://www.thenathanjacobspodcast.com/

Timestamps:

00:00 - Coming up next

01:28 - East West series

02:36 - Introduction

05:18 - What the nones believe

10:39 - Rejecting Western Christianity

14:12 - Augustine

18:40 - The nature/Grace divide

25:42 - Protestantism & predestination

31:48 - God's will

39:36 - Competing goods

46:17 - Our world is spiritual

59:02 - Return to talk

59:51 - Man as microcosm

01:01:51 - Was man made mortal or immortal?

01:06:11 - Energies

01:15:02 - What happens after death

01:18:06 - The remedy for divine hiddenness

01:24:34 - Q&A: On trusting your intuitions about God

01:29:21 - Q: Anxiety of the participants

01:30:58 - Q: What about Jesus?

01:33:11 - Q: Discussions about the Trinity

01:36:07 - Q: Using the halo in the documentary

01:40:06 - Q: Do nones go to other religions?

======================================

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The Theological Letters Substack: https://nathanajacobs.substack.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thenathanjacobspodcast

X: https://x.com/NathanJacobsPod

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nathanandrewjacobs

Academia: https://vanderbilt.academia.edu/NathanAJacobs

Listen and please review the podcast elsewhere:

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0hSskUtCwDT40uFbqTk3QS

Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nathan-jacobs-podcast