In this episode, Indra and Amanda discuss the complexities of co-creation in the workplace, particularly when it comes to leadership dynamics and the responsibilities that come with collaboration. They explore the importance of providing structure in collaborative efforts, the pitfalls of starting from a blank slate, and the need for clear expectations and communication. The conversation also touches on the challenges of goal setting, particularly with OKRs, and the significance of documenting contributions to avoid repeating past mistakes. Ultimately, the episode emphasizes the need for both leaders and team members to understand their roles and responsibilities in collaborative projects.

Takeaways

• Co-creation can often feel like a delegation of responsibilities.
• Leaders should come prepared to collaborate, not just delegate.
• Providing structure is essential for effective collaboration.
• Blank slates can lead to confusion and misalignment.
• People often don't know what they want until they see it.
• Documenting past experiences can help avoid future pitfalls.
• Understanding your bandwidth is crucial before taking on new tasks.
• Negotiating expectations can lead to better outcomes.
• The concept of 'what's in it for me' is important for all parties.
• OKRs should not be a bottom-up process without clear guidance.

Useful Links

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/

Chapters

00:00 Navigating Co-Creation in the Workplace

01:47 The Challenges of Role Definition

04:58 The Importance of Structure in Collaboration

07:47 The Value of Providing Context

10:59 Understanding Leadership Dynamics

13:44 Assessing Personal Boundaries and Responsibilities

16:56 Negotiating Expectations and Outcomes

19:51 The Slippery Slope of Helping

22:52 The Pitfalls of Bottom-Up Goal Setting

25:56 Documenting and Learning from Experiences

33:25 Outro

What does it take to build—and protect—culture when your team and community are growing faster than your playbook? In this episode, Indra talks with Derek Kastner, Head of Experience at Fabrik, about what it really means to nurture community and connection in a rapidly scaling organization.

From being one of Fabrik’s first three employees to helping onboard its growing team and shape the member experience, Derek shares candid lessons about balancing perfectionism with presence, co-creating culture with members, and learning to set boundaries while staying deeply human. Together, they explore the tension between structure and spontaneity, the invisible “glue work” that holds communities together, and how transparency, trust, and a little messiness can make something truly special.

Useful Links:

• Derek on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkastner/
• Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback

When the world shifts under your feet, what do you do next? In this episode, Indra talks with bestselling children’s author Nancy Krulik about the art of resilience and reinvention. From investigative journalism to over 250 books for kids — and now animation — Nancy’s career is a masterclass in adapting, learning, and staying curious when plans fall apart.

Together, they explore what it takes to recognize when it’s time to pivot, how to turn setbacks into opportunities, and why nothing you learn is ever wasted. Nancy shares hard-earned lessons on staying grounded through industry changes, embracing new tools (including AI), and rediscovering hidden talents along the way.

If you’ve ever been knocked down and wondered how to begin again — this conversation is your reminder that resilience isn’t just about bouncing back; it’s about changing course with purpose.

Listen for:

• How to turn a downturn into a creative turning point
• The value of lifelong learning and fearless experimentation
• Why “nothing is ever wasted” — even the hard parts
• How staying true to your craft helps you weather change

Useful Links:

• The Messy Middle Matters Merch: messymiddlemerch.com
• The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
• Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
• Nancy’s Website: https://www.realnancykrulik.com/
• Monsters Aren’t Real???: https://www.youtube.com/@MonstersArentRealCartoon
• Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/