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This week we're releasing an interview Steve did as a guest of Jim Byrne, host of MMT101 podcast.

Steve and Jim have much in common, so it’s interesting to hear how their approaches differ. In part, this is related to the conditions of their nationalities. Jim, in Scotland, isn’t faced with the myth of political democracy. They have a devolved government, under the thumb of Westminster, with no control over the economic levers. The demands are straightforward: more money... and independence.

Jim says he prefers to see MMT “purely as a technical – almost a technical description – with a bit of theory thrown in there, because of course T stands for theory.”

Steve describes his 15-year journey with MMT. Originally, he focused on the “wonky stuff,” the mechanics of the monetary system. He came to understand that people aren’t interested until they can see how it relates to their own lives. Today he maintains that MMT should be connected to real-world issues such as class struggle, poverty, student debt, and geopolitical conflicts like the horrific situation in Gaza.

The episode is a great conversation between two MMT activists. Despite their differences, they find they have much in common.

Jim Byrne is currently developing an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners, as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory.

Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com

@MMT101DotORG

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Scott Ferguson and Ben Wilson of the Money on the Left collective discuss their ‘Blue Bonds’ proposal with Steve. They explain how states can issue bonds to mitigate the federal austerity measures being enacted under the Trump administration. The conversation explores how this approach could democratize fiscal policy at the sub-federal level and empower local governments.

Their proposal frames state-issued bonds as a democratic tool to counteract federal inefficiencies, foster local investment and engage communities in financial decision-making.

They also address the ideological and practical barriers concerning the public's grasp of economic sovereignty, stressing the importance of understanding endogenous money creation and challenging the collective fear of public debt.

Benjamin C. Wilson is an Associate Professor of Economics at the State University of New York at Cortland and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity.

Scott Ferguson is an Associate Professor of Film & Media Studies in the Department of Humanities & Cultural Studies at the University of South Florida and a research scholar at the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He is co-host of Money on the Left podcast featured by Monthly Review.

Part of our mission is to introduce MMTers to socialism and socialists to MMT. We’ve had a few metaphorical doors slammed in our faces along the way. Former friends from the MMT community now delight in slinging accusations worthy of a HUAC hearing, while some socialists suspect modern monetary theory is just a sideshow of bourgeois economics. So, we didn’t know what to expect when we reached out to Justin and Jeremy, co-hosts of a podcast we’ve long admired. Compared to the vicious rejection we sometimes encounter, their good faith skepticism felt like a warm embrace. They invited Steve and Virginia to come onto Proles Pod and make a case for the radicalizing potential of MMT.

The conversation goes into the role of the state in currency issuance, the coercive nature of taxation, and how MMT can critique and unveil the inherent power dynamics within capitalism. Austerity, that devastating weapon of class warfare, is not a glitch; it’s a feature.

Virginia asks that listeners stop using the expression taxpayer money. “Even if you’re not ready to wrap your mind around MMT, just start calling it public money. You might not believe where it comes from but just stop. It's public money.” Given the classist, racist implications of relying on taxpayers to fund the government, a change in language is a good first step. Steve adds: “Whatever you tax, you immortalize. Whatever you tax, if you believe it's funding, you need forever.” The state is the source of currency; let’s stop elevating billionaires.

They look at the relationship between currency manipulation, inflation, and global economic dominance. They also touch on Gramsci and the impact of cultural hegemony. Ultimately, they agree on the necessity of a class-based analysis as a prerequisite for revolutionary change.

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