In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat (Montse) Gomendio, a former Secretary of State for Education in Spain. Montse is also a former Deputy Director of Education for the OECD, the international organization that administers the PISA test. Drawing on global data, including from PISA, Montse explains why some education systems consistently perform well while others struggle to improve.

Montse discusses the three key drivers of effective education systems: teacher quality, a knowledge-rich curriculum, and strong assessments aligned with that curriculum. Anna and Montse discuss what large-scale international assessments like PISA can (and can’t) tell us. The conversation also explores why education reform is so difficult to implement, what high-performing systems right like those in East Asia and Estonia get right, and whether Finland’s reputation as a model system is supported by evidence.

This is a fascinating conversation that will appeal to educators, policymakers, and anyone interested in what actually drives improvement in education systems.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

MONTSERRAT GOMENDIO’S BOOK (OPEN ACCESS) Dire Straits-Education Reforms: Ideology, Vested Interests and Evidence: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0332

SHORT COURSE La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:55] The role of Deputy Director of Education at the OCED [00:06:21] What is the purpose of PISA? [00:07:29] How is PISA different from TIMSS or PIRLS? [00:12:54] What is an appropriate definition of equity? [00:15:06] Measures that improve educational equity [00:19:57] The perplexing narrative about Finland as a top performer [00:28:42] Why do East Asian countries perform so well? [00:33:00] The importance of content knowledge [00:36:06] Misleading recommendations from the OECD [00:37:16] After-school tutoring in East Asian countries [00:41:36] Why implementation in different countries can be difficult: Latin America [00:46:18] Reducing class size: popular and expensive, but ineffective [00:48:08] What makes an effective teacher? [00:52:01] A look at Estonia’s education system [00:54:14] Why is it so hard to implement reforms even when they are evidence-based? [01:02:23] Preventing the reversal of good education policies [01:06:31] What are the main components that make an effective education system?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pxzyk-19b773f

Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math? https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107

From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97

Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-68-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

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In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. John Sweller, emeritus professor at the University of New South Wales and the researcher best known for developing Cognitive Load Theory. Together, they explore how cognitive load theory should guide classroom practice, particularly in mathematics.

John explains the limits of working memory, how experts and novices approach problem solving differently, and how strategies like worked examples can help manage cognitive load. They also discuss whether productive failure is supported by research and the strong experimental evidence supporting explicit instruction, particularly when students are learning new content.

This episode will be extremely valuable for educators, especially math teachers, who want to better understand how students become expert problem solvers and what that means for effective instruction.

This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE

La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:53] Biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge [00:09:34] Element Interactivity [00:15:37] Two characteristics of working memory [00:16:52] Understanding long-term memory [00:21:06] Does working memory capacity vary for different people? [00:21:44] Can working memory capacity be altered? [00:22:45] How can you measure working memory? [00:23:49] Explaining cognitive load theory [00:27:55] Can you measure cognitive load? [00:31:51] Sweller’s definition of problem solving [00:37:28] Understanding schemas [00:44:26] The way novices and experts categorize problems differently [00:46:11] The expertise reversal effect [00:50:13] How to identify students are ready for problem solving [00:52:12] Thoughts on productive failure [00:55:40] Why is there still debate about prioritizing inquiry-based approaches in math instruction?

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56 Cognitive load theory in math class with David Morkunas https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-znh5k-15f7937

Unmasking instructional illusions with Paul Kirschner, Carl Hendrick and Jim Heal https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-kvuee-198b6ee

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-67-transcript

MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by two world-renowned experts in human memory and learning, Dr. Elizabeth Bjork and Dr. Robert Bjork, to explore what makes a difficulty desirable in learning.

They explain why some learning strategies that feel effortful often leads to stronger, longer-lasting retention while strategies that feel easy, like rereading or rewatching lectures without self-testing, or cramming, can create an illusion of mastery. The conversation unpacks retrieval practice, spacing, interleaving, variation, and addresses common misconceptions about what makes a difficulty desirable, and why what looks like slow progress in the short term may actually lead to more durable learning in the long-term.

This episode will be of interest to educators at all levels and is especially important for high school and university students and their teachers who want to develop effective study habits grounded in science.

This episode is also available at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke

SHORT COURSE La Trobe Short Course: Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching

TIMESTAMPS

[00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:48] Guests’ background: moving from math to psychology [00:09:04] Researching effective learning techniques [00:10:35] Who does this research apply to? [00:14:47] The introduction of ‘Desirable difficulties’ [00:18:40] Understanding desirable difficulties [00:20:13] Importance of retrieval practice [00:30:46] The spacing effect [00:33:43] Variation and the benefits for students [00:36:55] Retrieval practice is the anchor in desirable difficulties [00:43:19] Blocking and interleaving [00:51:58] Final Thoughts

RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES

Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df

How we learn: Naïve, purposeful, and deliberate practice with Stephen Chew

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-mrwn2-18adce0

Powerful teaching with Patrice Bain https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d77g4-14602e3

How to excel in math and other tough subjects with Barbara Oakley https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bqs8p-14068f2

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-66-transcript

MUSIC

Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic

Website: www.annastokke.com

FB: Chalk & Talk

IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast

X: @rastokke

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c

Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social