Drew Perkins welcomes Patrick Graff, Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, to discuss his recent research analyzing 15 years of Florida's tax-credit scholarship program. Graff presents a compelling case for why "competition effects" may be significantly more cost-effective than simply increasing per-pupil spending for improving public school outcomes.

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The episode explores the "competition effect"—the phenomenon where public schools improve when they face the threat of losing students to nearby private options. Graff's research found that public school students in high-competition areas in Florida were 120 to 140 days ahead in reading compared to those in low-competition areas. Most strikingly, he estimates that the competition route was 11 times more cost-effective than achieving the same gains through pure spending increases.

Drew and Patrick also navigate the nuances of school choice, including the role of micro-schools, the impact on rural communities, and the critical need for minimum academic quality and transparency. They conclude by discussing the new federal Education Freedom Tax Credit and its potential to expand educational opportunities by bypassing traditional political constraints and driving resources directly to parents.

• [00:09:07] Patrick Graff's Background – From teaching 3rd grade in Tampa to researching education policy through a sociological lens.
• [00:10:49] Teacher Training & Alternative Certification – Insights from his work with the University of Notre Dame's ACE program.
• [00:20:13] The "Competition Effect" Findings – How Florida's private school options led to significant learning gains for public school students.
• [00:24:06] Competition vs. Spending – A cost-effectiveness comparison showing competition far outperforming traditional budget increases.
• [00:28:11] Reallocating Resources – How the "voucher threat" encourages public school principals to prioritize instructional quality.
• [00:33:31] The Rise of Micro-Schools – How niche, small-scale schools attract both conservative and progressive educators.
• [00:41:35] The Limitations of High Spending – Why the $190 billion ESSER (pandemic) funding showed modest returns on academic instruction.
• [01:01:26] Schools and Civil Society – The historical and current role of private schools in community building and immigrant integration.
• [01:03:45] Impact on Rural Areas – Debunking myths about school choice "starving" rural schools and exploring new service-sharing models.
• [01:08:38] Ensuring Academic Quality – The importance of nationally norm-referenced testing and parent-facing transparency.
• [01:14:29] The Education Freedom Tax Credit – How the new federal tax credit could unlock billions for both private and public school services.

Drew Perkins talks with Valentina Devid to explore why the term "formative assessment" often fails in practice and how shifting the focus to Formative Action can lead to more sustainable, durable learning. Valentina shares her journey from a history teacher seeking "intellectual nourishment" to a professional development expert specializing in evidence-informed instructional coaching.

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Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.

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The conversation highlights a critical "lethal mutation" in education: teachers becoming too tool-focused (e.g., using mini-whiteboards) without a clear pedagogical goal. Valentina introduces her company's Five-Step Short Loop Model—Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify—designed to help teachers make intentional, real-time decisions based on student thinking.

A major focus of the discussion is the Verify (Mirror Question) step, which Valentina describes as a "humbling experience" that ensures the teacher's corrective action actually worked before moving on. Drew and Valentina also tackle the challenge of sustainability in professional development, discussing how to support school leaders in making informed, durable implementation plans rather than relying on one-off keynotes.

Finally, they explore the intersection of Inquiry-Based Learning and cognitive science, breaking down the "false dichotomy" between explicit instruction and student-led questioning. Valentina argues that while retrieval practice is essential for fluency, inquiry is a vital tool for sense-making and creating the retrieval cues necessary for long-term, durable knowledge.

• [00:09:24] Valentina's Journey – From a "question-filled" history teacher to seeking rigor in teacher preparation.
• [00:13:49] Sustainable School Change – The mission of her PD company to move beyond one-off training days.
• [00:19:39] Assessment vs. Action – Why rebranding to "Formative Action" helps teachers focus on pedagogy rather than just tools.
• [00:31:22] The Five-Step Short Loop Model – A walkthrough of the Orientate, Generate, Evaluate, Act, and Verify process.
• [00:38:08] The Power of the "Verify" Step – Closing the loop with mirror questions to ensure learning stuck.
• [00:44:48] The Three Strategies – Integrating the Short Loop, Sense for Quality (modeling), and Feedback Processes.
• [00:57:21] Training Teacher Perception – How to use "Pedagogical Road Maps" to anticipate student pitfalls.
• [01:00:34] The Implementation Gap – Why teachers sometimes grasp concepts but struggle with classroom techniques.
• [01:03:45] Inquiry as a Formative Tool – Using Project Zero Thinking Routines to make thinking visible for action.
• [01:12:14] Defining Durable Learning – Ensuring knowledge remains in long-term memory through intentional curriculum design.
• [01:18:00] The Craft of Teaching – Discerning when to provide less guidance to maximize "hard thinking".

Drew Perkins talks with Brendan Lee, a primary school teacher, host of the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast, and advocate for evidence-informed pedagogy. Brendan shares his transition from an initial belief in unguided project-based learning to a more structured approach rooted in the Science of Reading and the instructional hierarchy.

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Have some feedback you'd like to share? You can email me at drew@thoughtstretchers.org.

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Brendan explains the instructional hierarchy—a framework that identifies where a student sits on the continuum from novice to expert. He emphasizes that when students are in the "acquisition stage" (or frustration stage), they require high levels of scaffolding and explicit instruction. Without this foundation, students often become disengaged because they lack the prerequisite skills to tackle complex tasks.

A central theme of the conversation is the critical role of fluency. Brendan argues that a lack of fluency in "tool skills"—like basic math facts or decoding—acts like "climbing a mountain with a bag of bricks on your back". By implementing just five minutes of daily, timed fluency practice, teachers can free up cognitive space for students to engage in higher-order thinking and discovery.

Finally, Drew and Brendan discuss the "curse of knowledge" and why many inquiry-based approaches fail when they lack intentional design. They explore how "engineering the aha moment" requires a deep understanding of what students already know and the strategic fading of support as accuracy increases.

• • [00:09:15] Brendan's Background – From high school PE teacher and aspiring rugby pro to primary school educator.

• • [00:12:06] The Shift in Thinking – Moving from project-based learning to recognizing the need for foundational knowledge in young learners.

• • [00:17:29] Discovering the Science of Reading – Key resources and mentors that transformed Brendan's approach to literacy.

• • [00:23:58] The Instructional Hierarchy – Breaking down the framework of acquisition, fluency, generalization, and adaptation.

• • [00:33:32] Working Memory and Subskills – Why students struggle with multi-step problems when they lack fluency in basic components.

• • [00:46:54] Tool, Component, and Composite Skills – Defining the building blocks of mastery.

• • [01:01:52] Inquiry Before Explicit Instruction – Drew discusses using "framing questions" to create a "need to know".

• • [01:06:41] The Curse of Knowledge – Why teachers struggle to adopt a novice perspective when designing tasks.

• • [01:11:50] Behavior Analysis and Scaffolding – The importance of "contingency reduction" and fading prompts based on student accuracy.
  • [01:16:50] Final Advice – Focus on small, incremental improvements rather than mastering everything at once.