Why do smart people join dangerous cults, follow bad leaders, or stay silent when they know something’s wrong? In this episode, Michael Shermer talks with organizational psychologist Colin Fisher about the science of group dynamics and conformity.

From jazz bands to political mobs, Fisher explains how our evolutionary need to belong both unites and blinds us. He discusses the psychology of revenge, polarization, social media extremism, and why our brains are wired to dehumanize “the other.”

What makes a group innovative instead of dogmatic? And how close are we—really—to turning everyday politics into a cult?

Colin M. Fisher is an Associate Professor of Organizations and Innovation at University College London’s School of Management. His research focuses on helping groups and teams in situations requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision-making. He has written about group dynamics for both popular science and management audiences, and his work has been profiled in prominent media outlets such as BBC, Forbes, NPR, and The Times. His new book is The Collective Edge: Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups.

In this episode, Michael Shermer explores anomalous experiences through personal anecdotes and historical examples. He reflects on how to balance healthy skepticism with open-mindedness, and how to reckon with the very real emotional significance of such experiences—regardless of the scientific explanations behind them.

A former senior intelligence officer explains how espionage is evolving in the age of AI and amid rising global tensions with China, and why the mass harvesting of data affects not just nation-states, but all of us.

The discussion also explores the history of spying, what life is really like for intelligence officers, and major intelligence failures and scandals, including 9/11 and Edward Snowden’s unauthorized disclosures about the NSA.

Anthony Vinci served as the first Chief Technology Officer at the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA). Earlier in his career he served in Iraq, Africa, and Asia. He is an Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security (CNAS) and received his PhD in International Relations from the London School of Economics. His new book is The Fourth Intelligence Revolution: The Future of Espionage and the Battle to Save America.