Michael Shermer sits down with novelist and essayist Lionel Shriver for a wide-ranging conversation about what happens when old political labels stop making sense. Shriver reflects on the strange moral and political confusions that now shape debates over immigration, identity, religion, and the meaning of tolerance.

They discuss why immigration has become, in Shriver’s view, the central political issue of this century; why support for illiberal ideas is often framed as compassion; why the culture of fiction and publishing has grown more timid; and how writers can still engage seriously with divisive subjects without surrendering either honesty or nuance.

The conversation also turns personal: Shriver’s religious upbringing, her own personal experiences with immigration, and reflections on the diminishing cultural authority of the novelist.

Lionel Shriver is an author and journalist, a graduate of Columbia University, and a columnist for The Spectator. Her fiction confronts some of the defining issues of modern life: school shootings in We Need to Talk About Kevin, the cost of healthcare in So Much for That, economic instability in The Mandibles, aging and suicide in Should We Stay or Should We Go, and low intelligence and DEI in Mania. Her latest novel, A Better Life, takes up immigration from the perspective of the host.

Zion Lights used to be deep inside the environmental movement: protests, arrests, road blockades, the whole thing. Then she started looking closely at the evidence around nuclear power and found that much of what she’d been told about energy, risk, and climate solutions didn’t hold up.

In this conversation with Michael Shermer, she explains why anti-nuclear politics has done real damage, and why reliable energy matters far beyond moral posturing. She speaks from experience about Extinction Rebellion, energy policy in Germany and France, fear around Fukushima and Chernobyl, energy poverty, overpopulation, and why modern environmentalism so often attacks the very technologies that could help both people and the planet.

Zion Lights is a British science communicator, writer, author, and former environmental activist known for her pivot to advocacy of evidence-based environmental policy, particularly her support for nuclear energy as a tool for decarbonisation. She is a prominent voice in debates about climate change, energy policy, humanism, and the role of scientific reasoning in public discourse. Her new book is Energy is Life: Why Environmentalism Went Nuclear.

Jeremy Jones joins Michael Shermer to talk about DOGE AI, government fraud, and the strange reality that some of the biggest problems in public life are both widely known and somehow never fixed. Jones explains how his team uses AI to sort through enormous government datasets, isolate suspicious billing patterns, and surface waste at a scale that would be almost impossible to catch by hand.

They also get into Jones’s own background—growing up in Luxembourg, landing in Chicago, and seeing firsthand how different systems shape people’s lives—before moving into a broader argument about immigration, education, bureaucracy, media, and why trust in institutions is falling.

It’s a blunt conversation, and at times a confrontational one, about fraud, incentives, and what happens when everybody knows something is broken but nobody seems able, or willing, to stop it.

Jeremy Jones is the co-founder of Rhetor, an AI-powered intelligence and strategy company for campaigns, advocacy orgs, and government departments. Rhetor began with DOGEai, the viral autonomous AI-powered government watchdog on X that has drawn engagement from The White House, Elon Musk, and members of Congress, which was created as a public good and out of Rhetor’s commitment to restore accountability in the ruling class.