What does it take to guide visitors through histories that are genuinely contested and emotionally charged? In this episode, I'm joined by Brandon Dillard, Director of Historic Interpretation and Audience Engagement at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello, and Kelsie Paul, Director of Learning and Visitor Experience at the Frick Pittsburgh, to explore how both institutions have reimagined their guided experiences in response to the complicated legacies of their central historical figures.

We talk about the long evolution of interpretation at Monticello, from the site's earliest tours to the integration of slavery and the story of Sally Hemings into the core narrative. Kelsie shares the process behind the Frick's "Gilded, Not Golden" tour - a ground-up redesign of Clayton's 30-year-old house tour that involved consultants, an advisory board, difficult internal conversations and a willingness to start from scratch.

We also dig into what it means to support guides doing this work: hiring for empathy, investing in training, facilitating ongoing dialogue, and empowering guides to be facilitators rather than lecturers. And we reflect on the civic role of historic sites in a polarised moment, including how Monticello is approaching the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

Whether you're working at a historic house, leading tours in any kind of museum or cultural space, or thinking about how to hold space for complexity in your guided programmes, I think you'll find a great deal to take away from this conversation.

The Art Engager is written and presented by Claire Bown. Editing is by Matt Jacobs and Claire Bown. Music by Richard Bown. Support on Patreon

LinkedIn Kelsie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelsie-paul-39561b199/

Frick website: www.thefrickpittsburgh.org

Frick Instagram: @frickpittsburgh

Recent article on Clayton: https://www.pittsburghmagazine.com/places-we-love-clayton/

LinkedIn Brandon: www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmdillard

Monticello website: https://www.monticello.org/

Monticello Instagram: @tjmonticello

✨ If you've enjoyed this episode, please consider supporting The Art Engager on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/TheArtEngager

Or pick up a copy of my book, The Art Engager, for step-by-step guidance on creating meaningful, interactive guided experiences https://www.theartengager.com/

Buy it here on Amazon.com: https://tinyurl.com/buytheartengager

In this episode Claire Bown is joined by Georgia Close and Harriet Body from the National Gallery of Australia, alongside Naomi Zouwer from the University of Canberra, to explore how the gallery co-designed its Creative Learning approach.

The conversation traces an 18-month process of articulating a shared pedagogical framework shaped by national context, cultural responsibility, and First Nations-led principles. Rather than adopting an existing model, the team worked through workshops, observation, interviews and iterative “campaigns” to develop a cohesive, values-led approach.

A key commitment was centring the artist’s voice, placing artist intention in conversation with students’ existing knowledge. From this, the team developed a Creative Learning strategy planning tool that supports inquiry-led, multimodal, embodied and reflective practice.

Across the episode, they explore:

1. How to develop a context-specific learning approach rather than importing a model
2. What it means in practice to centre the artist’s voice
3. How small, iterative “campaigns” can embed reflective practice in a team
4. How multimodality and embodiment deepen engagement beyond discussion
5. Why joy is understood as a serious pedagogical commitment
6. What co-design and participatory action research look like inside a museum setting

This episode will resonate with anyone working in museums, galleries or cultural institutions who is thinking carefully about pedagogy, reflective practice, and how to articulate an approach that genuinely reflects their context and values.

The Art Engager is written and presented by Claire Bown. Editing is by Matt Jacobs and Claire Bown. Music by Richard Bown. Support on Patreon

https://nga.gov.au/learn/our-creative-learning-approach/

The Creative Learning Project Digital Publication: https://nga.gov.au/media/dd/documents/NGA_The_Creative_Learning_Project_Digital_Publication.pdf

Zouwer, N. & Hamilton, O. (2026). The Creative Learning Project: Defining the National Gallery of Australia’s Creative Learning Approach. 10.13140/RG.2.2.35063.28324

Zouwer, N., Hamilton, O., Menser Hearn, N., & Ali, I. (2026). Using Practice-Based Methods to Co-create, Define, and Articulate a New Approach to Art Education in the National Gallery of Australia. Australian Journal of Education, 0(0). https://doi.org/10.1177/00049441261421257

Georgia Close, Head of Learning, National Gallery of Australia

Harriet Body, Creative Learning Convenor, National Gallery of Australia

Harriet Body on LinkedIn

Naomi Zouwer, artist, teacher, and researcher. Lecturer of Creative Arts Teacher Education and a researcher in the...