Clay welcomes eminent western historian Paul Hutton for a discussion of his new book, The Undiscovered Country: Triumph, Tragedy, and the Shaping of the American West. Hutton is a distinguished emeritus professor of history at the University of New Mexico and also the Interim Curator of the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wyoming. Hutton's latest book attempts to strike a balance between the old, unreconstructed triumphalist view of America's westward movement and the more recent, guilt-ridden academic condemnation of the American experiment. We attempted to unpack the concepts of discovery, manifest destiny, the "Indian Wars," and the mythology of the West, including in Hollywood Westerns. How should America think about its westward movement as the 250th birthday of the United States approaches? This podcast was recorded on October 30, 2025.

Clay talks with Professor Ellen Wohl of Colorado State University about the magical ways of rivers. Professor Wohl is the author of a new book, Following the Bend: How to Read a River and Understand Its Nature. Where does the water come from, and where does it wind up? Why do rivers meander and form S-curves? Does a river have a single source or many capillary feeder streams? As global climate change becomes a central problem of our era, what will happen to the 40 million people who depend on the Colorado for their livelihoods, lifestyles, and survival? How does the United States Geological Survey decide where to pinpoint the source of a river like the Missouri or the Mississippi? Should we expect serious breaches of major dams during our lifetime? Do rivers have legal standing? Finally, do rivers have consciousness and intentionality? This episode was recorded on October 27, 2025.

One of Clay's favorite historians, Joe Ellis, has just published his 14th book, The Great Contradiction: The Tragic Side of the American Founding. His latest volume attempts to make sense of the twin failures of the revolutionary era: the failure to end slavery in the United States and the founders' inability to respect and protect the homelands and sovereignty of Native Americans. How could the founders have been so dedicated to the principles of liberty, equality, and the rights of humankind and permitted themselves to be hypocrites on these fundamental issues? Joe's book is an attempt to chasten some of the wilder claims of the 1619 Project, which argues that America has been a racist and even white supremacist nation from the beginning, and all that talk about the "rights of man" is just self-serving rhetoric. This is not the view of Joe Ellis. This episode was recorded on October 28, 2025.