One line in Martin Buber’s I and Thou stopped Jim Ferrell in his tracks. It made him realize that leadership isn’t inside the individual — it lives in the space between us. That insight became his new book, You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership. In it, Jim argues that progress doesn’t come from sameness, but from uniting across difference. In this episode, Jim and Dart discuss the four laws of relation, why relation is not the same as relationships, and how leaders can shift attention from individuals to the “between.”

Jim Ferrell is a leadership consultant, founder of Withiii Leadership, and bestselling author of several leadership classics. He has spent nearly 30 years working with leaders and organizations around the world.

In this episode, Dart and Jim discuss:
- Relation vs. relationships
- The four laws of relation
- Why progress depends on difference
- How individualistic leadership fails
- What happens when we ignore the “between”
- Levels of relation: division to compounding
- Practices that move leaders toward integration
- How relation reshapes how we see ourselves and others
- And other topics…

Jim Ferrell is the founder of Withiii Leadership and author of You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership. Prior to Withiii, he co-founded and led the Arbinger Institute, where he authored international bestsellers including Leadership and Self-Deception and The Anatomy of Peace. His work on leadership, culture change, and conflict resolution has shaped organizations from Apple, Google, and Nike to the White House and U.S. Treasury. A graduate of Yale Law School, Jim has also served as an adjunct professor on law and leadership at Brigham Young University. He is recognized as one of the most influential voices in relational leadership and organizational change.

Resources Mentioned:
You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life, and Leadership, by Jim Ferrell: https://www.amazon.com/You-We-Relational-Rethinking-Leadership/dp/1637747330
I and Thou, by Martin Buber: https://www.amazon.com/I-Thou-Martin-Buber/dp/1578989973
Withiii Leadership: https://www.withiii.com/
Get discounted tickets to the Responsive Conference, featuring past Work for Humans guests Bree Groff and Simone Stolzoff – September 17–18, Oakland, CA. Use code “11fold”: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets
Register to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/

Connect with Jim:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslferrell/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

For years, Dart doubted that companies could actually make skills the building blocks of work. They felt too abstract, too static, too disconnected from real daily work. But Sandra Loughlin proved that in some cases, skills can deliver real value. In this episode, Sandra explains why skills only matter in context, why stretch assignments drive real learning, and what it takes to build a true learning organization at scale.

Dr. Sandra Loughlin is Chief Learning Scientist at EPAM Systems. She holds a PhD in educational psychology from the University of Maryland and previously taught and led learning initiatives there.

In this episode, Dart and Sandra discuss:
- Why learning is different from training—and why it matters
- How EPAM connects skills to work
- Why skills only become powerful when grounded in context
- The role of stretch assignments in developing real capabilities
- How data and human agency work together at EPAM
- What it takes to keep a skills ontology fresh as work evolves
- Lessons for leaders building organizations that truly learn
- And other topics…

Dr. Sandra Loughlin is Chief Learning Scientist at EPAM Systems, a $5 billion global engineering and professional services company. At EPAM, she integrates learning science, organizational psychology, and data to help employees and clients develop the skills needed to succeed in a fast-changing world. She holds a PhD in educational psychology and learning analytics from the University of Maryland, where she also served as a faculty member and led transformational learning initiatives, and a master’s degree in education from Harvard University. Her work has been recognized for bridging cutting-edge learning research with large-scale business practice.

Resources Mentioned:
Get discounted tickets to the Responsive Conference, featuring past Work for Humans guests Bree Groff and Simone Stolzoff – September 17–18, Oakland, CA. Use code “11fold”: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets
Register to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/

Connect with Sandra:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandraloughlin/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

The germ theory of disease is one of the greatest breakthroughs in human history. But it took more than 2,000 years of false starts and resistance before medicine finally recognized that germs cause disease. In his book Germ Theory, Dr. Robert Gaynes unpacks why this shift was so hard to achieve. In this episode, he and Dart explore what it teaches us about paradigm shifts today: why new ideas face such resistance, how the personalities of innovators influence acceptance, and what happens when a powerful new paradigm leads us to overcorrect.

Dr. Robert P. Gaynes is an infectious disease physician and Professor of Medicine at Emory University. He is the author of Germ Theory, a CHOICE Outstanding Academic Title.

In this episode, Dart and Robert discuss:
- Why it took centuries to accept that germs cause disease
- What resistance to handwashing reveals about change
- Breakthroughs Robert witnessed in his career
- How medicine’s history reveals patterns of change
- HIV’s transformation from fatal to treatable
- What happens when new paradigms go too far
- How personality shapes whether innovations are accepted
- Lessons for anyone driving change at work today
- And other topics…

Dr. Robert P. Gaynes is an infectious disease physician and Professor of Medicine at Emory University. He chairs Emory’s Infection Control and Antimicrobial Stewardship Committees, attends at the Atlanta VA Medical Center, and has written extensively on hospital-acquired infections and antimicrobial use. He is the author of Germ Theory: Medical Pioneers in Infectious Disease, named a CHOICE Outstanding Academic Title.

Resources Mentioned:
Germ Theory: Medical Pioneers in Infectious Disease by Robert Gaynes: https://www.amazon.com/Germ-Theory-Pioneers-Infectious-Diseases/dp/168367376X
Get discounted tickets to the Responsive Conference, featuring past Work for Humans guests Bree Groff and Simone Stolzoff – September 17–18, Oakland, CA. Use code “11fold”: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets
Register to attend the UWEBC Conference, where Dart keynotes the HR track alongside Ethan Mollick and Nancy Giordano – September 30, University of Wisconsin: https://uwebc.wisc.edu/conference/registration/

Connect with Robert:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-p-gaynes-49b1541/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.