Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.

In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.

This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:

• Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challenge
• The first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptions
• Reset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safety
• Clear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North Star
• Testing real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rollout
• Radical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing off
• Senior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountability
• Adaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisis
• Digital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptions
• System proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over time

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.

We cover:

• The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support Ministers
• The lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’
• Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ers
• The glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.

Referenced in this episode:

• The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?
• Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the Tree

Cover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare.

In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition Government’s priority list in 2010 to a £450m hot mess in 2013.

We also look at the unusual (and brave) decision to keep going.

Along the way, we cover:

• Whether radical transparency can be an answer to rescuing something when you’re in the middle of a hot mess?
• Whether we underestimate the importance of a ’holder of the vision’ in giant systems reform?
• Whether articulating a north star for reform is hard because it makes clear what you are prioritising, and, equally importantly, what you’re not?
• The laughable idea of low hanging fruit

Referenced in the episode:

• Ed Milliband’s interview referencing PM Gordon Brown as an ideas factory, on Leading (The Rest is Politics)
• David Freud’s masterful memoir on his seminal role in Universal Credit, Clashing Agendas
• Institute for Government has held a number of great events on this, including one in 2016 and another in 2025
• Abul Rizvi’s appearance on Joe Walker podcast on the origins of Australia’s immigration system

Intro grab is Lord David Freud from Institute for Government 2016 event, From disaster to recovery: Learning the lessons of Universal Credit Clashing Agendas.

Outro grab is Tom Loosemore, former Deputy Director, Government Digital Services, from Institute for Government 2025 event, From disaster to completion? What Government can learn from the Universal Credit story?

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!