The Truth About Welfare, Poverty, and Income in America

In this episode of Leave Us Alone, Grover Norquist sits down with former U.S. Senator Phil Gramm for a wide-ranging conversation on tax policy, economic growth, and the role of government in shaping economic outcomes.

The discussion spans the stagflation and economic crisis of the late 1970s, Gramm's role in passing the Reagan tax cuts, and the long-term effects of those reforms on inflation, growth, and opportunity. The episode also examines welfare spending, poverty statistics, and claims about economic inequality.

Gramm explains how government benefits are often excluded from official income measurements, why those accounting choices matter, and how they influence debates over taxes, spending, and federal policy.

The conversation concludes with a look at state-level tax reforms and why fiscal discipline and honest measurement remain central to long-term economic growth.