What happens when a thoughtful investor sits down with a contrarian academic for a free-flowing, two-hour conversation? In this wide-ranging episode, Guy Spier reconnects with his former professor, Amar Bhidé, who’s the Professor of Health Policy at Columbia University Medical Center, for a dialogue that blurs the lines between economics, storytelling, philosophy, and life itself.

They begin by reflecting on paths taken—and those deliberately left behind. Professor Bhidé shares how a winding career through finance, policy, and academia has shaped his unconventional views on business education and the role of theory.

At the heart of the conversation is a simple but profound distinction: risk versus uncertainty. But this is no dry academic discussion. Instead, it opens into a deeper exploration of how we make decisions, how we explain the world, and why models often fail to capture what matters most.

Stories play a starring role—stories in business, in investing, in life. The two explore why narratives move us, how they can deceive, and what they reveal about human nature. From entrepreneurs to generals, from investors to doctors, Professor Bhidé argues that judgment and imagination remain our most vital tools.

There are digressions, of course—beautiful ones. Into mythology and scripture, literature and logic. Into why certain minds captivate us, and why what we choose to read says something about how we choose to live.

This isn’t a podcast about one big idea—it’s about many. And the spaces between them. It’s about learning to see and finding meaning—quietly, sometimes stubbornly—just beyond the known.

Full transcript available here: https://aqfd.docsend.com/view/g2vwrtr7yiq9cwnp

(00:00:00) Setting the Stage: Uncertainty, Progress, and a Life’s Work

(00:06:21) A Distinction That Matters

(00:14:46) The Power of Plausibility: How Investors Use Stories to Decide

(00:22:20) Data Can’t Dream: Why Judgment and Imagination Still Rule

(00:28:34) First Principles, Human Realities: Rethinking How We Know

(00:47:55) More Than Facts: How Stories Shape Action and Identity

(00:55:49) Duty Without Reward: Eastern Philosophy Meets the Business Mind

(01:03:27) Happy with Small Takes: Reflections on Power, History, and the Self

(01:10:36) Books, Minds, and Conversations That Stay With You

In this conversation between Guy Spier and Eric Schaanning, the discussion revolves around the intricacies of asset-liability management (ALM) and interest rate risk, particularly in the banking sector. Eric shares insights from his experience, explaining key concepts like the economic value of equity (EVE), DV01 (the sensitivity of a bank's net present value to interest rate changes), and various risk management techniques used by banks.

The conversation explores how different banks, depending on their lending structures (e.g., fixed-rate vs. floating-rate loans), manage interest rate risk. Eric discusses the role of macro and micro hedging, highlighting that while macro hedging is used to offset risks from a portfolio of loans, micro hedging targets individual debt issuance with specific interest rate swaps. The conversation also touches on the concept of "equity term out," referring to how a bank's equity is handled from an interest rate risk perspective.

Guy draws a parallel to value investing and mentions how understanding banking risk management, such as interest rate risk, is valuable for investors, especially when evaluating financial institutions. He mentions the importance of having a clear understanding of how these risks could impact stock prices and the economic health of banks.

The discussion ends with reflections on how understanding these concepts can enhance an investor's decision-making, particularly in evaluating the risks and opportunities in the banking sector. Eric emphasizes the importance of thinking about balance sheets over time and how these insights apply not only to banks but also to individuals managing their own finances. Finally, Eric shares resources like LinkedIn and his personal Google site for further learning.

In this engaging podcast, Howard Marks, co-founder of Oaktree Capital, and Guy Spier, founder of Aquamarine Capital, share invaluable investment wisdom with Roi Lipovetzky, a former MBA student and current investment professional at Oakmount Capital.

The conversation explores key principles of successful investing, such as mastering market cycles, second-level thinking, risk management, and the importance of long-term, contrarian positions. Howard reflects on his experience through major market events, while Guy emphasizes the need for emotional discipline and unconventional thinking.

A key theme in their discussion is the importance of being true to oneself, especially in a world that often values conformity. Both Howard and Guy highlight the value of making independent decisions and staying grounded in one’s own principles, rather than trying to please others or follow popular trends.

With years of collective experience, Howard and Guy provide deep insights into the mindset needed for lasting success in investing and life.

Full transcript available here: https://aqfd.docsend.com/view/2nv2iqixj8rm7bb7

Contents:

(00:00) A Journey of Learning: Insights from Howard Marks, Guy Spier an Roi Lipovetzky

(03:20) Focusing on Excellence: Howard Marks on Building Oaktree for the Long Term

(07:19) Writing for Investors, Not for Entertainment

(18:09) Honesty, Risk and Purpose

(27:23) The Value of Fun: Howard Marks on Enjoyment, Work, and Investing

(33:38) Risk, Resilience, and Staying True to Your Principles

(41:12) Closing Reflections: The Power of Truth and Clarity